Lioness S3 & Slow Horses S6 - The Special Relationship - Eagle Eyes

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_03] Welcome to Eagle Eyes, a Lorehounds podcast. I am your host, David, and with me is community co-host Stu, aka Doove71. Doove, how are you doing?

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_04] David I'm pretty good, David. I'm really looking forward to this one because I'm going to get some spicy takes in, but I'm also going to have a nice time talking about slave horses. David You are cleared, weapons hot, on my position, danger close. David Oh God, don't.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_03] David So this is our imprint, if you will, on the Lorehounds main feed where Doove and I, two Gen Xers who grew up watching war movies and spy stuff on screen, where we get to talk about some of our most favorite and least favorite titles that we've watched.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_04] David To be fair, David, I'm calling you on this. You told me I had to watch Lioness.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_03] David Well, we're going to talk about it.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_04] David Yeah, you need to buckle in, baby.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_03] David And yeah, so today we, as Stu said, this is our Special Relationship podcast. This is a play on the special relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom and the long political and strategic alliance that those two, our two countries have.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_03] David And it seemed fitting because Lioness season three ended not long ago and Slow Horses season six had its finale last week relative to when we recorded. David And we thought, oh, this is a really great opportunity to cover some quasi-spy related stuff.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_03] David And that, but it's also, I mean, both of these shows are squarely within our targets, our scope here for Eagle Eyes. David And we thought, oh, well, this would be a fun combination to compare these two shows. David Oh, it's going to be fun. David Because they're so different.

[00:02:21] David Because they're so different.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_03] David They're so wildly different. David So, I think Lioness is a Paramount Plus, but I don't know who's Paramount going with now and Sheridan's leaving and we don't know if we're going to get a season four. There's all kinds of whatnot about that. And Slow Horses is on Apple TV.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_03] David And Stu, as our range safety officer, you want to give us a quick mission briefing and where we are with spoilers and stuff so folks can take appropriate precautions?

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_04] David So we're going to start off with some spoiler-free setup, just some information context, just something so you're familiar with either show. We'll give you a brief on each of those shows. We'll give you our kind of hot takes. David And we'll give you our assessments on both shows. And we'll also give you our Eagle Eyes rounds on target scores for each of them, which is going to be interesting, actually. It is going to be interesting.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_03] David And rounds on target is our working title for kind of a grading assessment for…

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_04] David Yeah. Think Pequila scale, isn't it?

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_03] David Exactly. And so this, you know, if you were on a firing range, you know, how many rounds did you land in your…

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_04] David Yeah, onto the target. David On the target. David That should be good. Once we've done all that, we'll take a quick commercial break and then we'll dive straight into full spoilers on each of those shows.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_03] David And what we've set up today is we're going to kind of run a parallel operation, a lead and follow kind of style where one show we'll talk a little bit about it and then we'll talk about the other show. David And then we'll kind of look at the two show… David And what the two shows are saying kind of to each other or what we can infer from both of them sort of at the same time. David So that's kind of a fun model.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_03] David And we've got a bunch of other thematic shows in progress that are going to follow sort of similar models where we're going to pair multiple titles together. David And so as we're developing and exploring this show and these formats, this one is maybe a working model for us.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_04] David Yeah. It's going to be a bit different, isn't it? Because we're not really diving deep into each show to review them. David In a normal Lorehounds way. David In a normal Lorehounds way. We're taking the two shows and there are some thematic links and there are some differences between the shows and I think it's how we explore. David Don't laugh. David Really?

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_04] David You're laughing. You're laughing. Anyway, but yeah, you've hit the nail on the head there, David. I think this will be an interesting way to explore how we can do these thematic episodes rather than a traditional let's go in and actually review. David Which is a shame because I agree with a comment you made on the latest Second Breakfast, which is in hindsight, Slow Horses season six would have been a fantastic ep by ep.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_03] David Absolute banger of the season. And at the end of it, I just turned to my wife because we were watching together and I was just like, damn it! Expletive, expletive. I wish we had done episode to episode on this.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_04] David Egalize 2027. We should be okay.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_03] David Right, because we do have a confirmed season seven is locked and I believe they are cleared hot for next year.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_04] David Season eight, I think, has started filming.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_03] David You know, come on. Come on. Let's give it up for Slow Horses for these guys who know how to make. We want the gourmet cheeseburger, but we want it on a reasonable scale. David And then that helps us. I'm going on a rant here. That helps us keep us engaged. And if I know at the end of a season what the plans are, then I'm going to relate to the way the show wraps up differently.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_03] David The way that I engage and the way that I feel about it and the way that I'm going to talk about it. And especially as sort of this cottage industry of, you know, podcasters. We're doing the shows a favor by talking about them. David Anyway, you know, some of them, I don't mind. I get it. Like a couple of years production. I get it. There's a lot of story work, a lot of CGI, a lot of actor commitments and scheduling. Fine.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_03] David But there's in some other shows, there's just no excuse. And there's no excuse to not be green lighting earlier on when you know you got something decent. Anyway, rant over.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_04] David We better do the usual at the top. David Yes. David We're going to be talking about shows that deal with combat. We're not a political podcast, but I think it's very difficult, particularly season three of Lioness, to avoid some of the political topics that are within it.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_03] David We're not going to be talking about specific administrations or candidates or anything like that. And it's more about the jingoism than it is about any particular political ethos or value statements of any particular political party.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_04] David Yeah, I think that's fair. Obviously, combat, political matters, how they relate to espionage, it's character drama, particularly in Slow Horses. But really, come on. David If you've got this far, if you're listening to the pair of us waffle on, then surely this is what you're going to be expecting anyway.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_03] David Fair enough. All right. Well, let's rock some housekeeping, get that out of the way, and then we can get straight into our discussions. If you haven't caught our first podcast, it was talking about the movie Pressure that was released this year. David Fair enough. David Fair enough.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03] David Fair enough. And then I watched it and I was like, wow, this has to be in a best picture top 10. I don't think it's going to win, but it's got to be in the list for sure.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_04] It was great. Thanks to Marilyn for that one.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_03] And it was such a fun discussion and such a fun movie to hang out with the two of you for that conversation. So that's already out in the feed. We are an independent podcast. You probably have heard me say this if you have been listening to the Lorehounds at any given point in time. I was thinking about this this morning. I mean, we're in this era of inshittification of people trying to squeeze more profit and deliver less on product.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_03] And the Lorehounds are kind of an opposite force to that. We put more product out than you could probably consume.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_04] From an academic perspective, we are profit optimizers, not profit maximizers. Profit optimizers take the profit back in to make the product even better. That is exactly what we do. So there you are.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_03] And we do that through a couple of means. One is ad supported, publicly available podcast feeds. And the other way is through subscriptions, direct subscriptions. Subscribers do get ad free podcasts. So that is one upside plus some of the exclusive content that we put out, what you're watching, 11Zs, second breakfast, and other little weird side projects from time to time.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03] But then subscribing is also helping us hold the walls against the collapsing and shitification, right? And it helps make sure that we can pay for the software and hardware that we need. It makes sure that those who do need to take a financial bite at the Apple, that we can have an equitable sharing protocol across the network and across the different hosts who participate.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_03] And so subscriptions, your subscriptions actually support that. So we know times are weird. If it works for you and you feel so moved, we would really love to have your subscriptions. There's a link in the show notes. You can subscribe either on Patreon or Supercast. They're functionally the same for us. They're just, you know, some people have aversions or preferences. So do that if it works for you. And for those of you who do subscribe, we really do appreciate you. Okay, enough of my NPR, my public radio spiel.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_03] If you are interested in conversing with other like-minded individuals, we have a great community Discord. It's a lot of fun. It's a diverse place. It has space for all kinds of conversations and topics. We just fired up some new conversation spaces for talking about all of the Exorcist movies because that's one of the things that we're going to be covering for Spooktober. We fired up a Monster Island podcast to talk about Godzilla and all of the Kaiju related stuff because we have Godzilla minus zero coming out in a couple of weeks. Great part.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_03] We've got a whole series on that coming out. So look for that in your feed. So if you want to talk with other folks, talk about all these different shows and properties and books and music and all the different shows in our podcast network. Discord is a great place to hang out. It's our virtual water cooler link in the show notes. If you want to send Duv and I feedback talking about the movies and shows that we have, eagleeyesatthelorehounds.com. E-A-G-L-E-E-Y-E-S atthelorehounds.com. One word.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_03] Again, link in the show notes. And we're going to have an open rolling forward policy for feedback. So if you send feedback in reaction to a past podcast, we'll read it on the next coming podcast. And if you send something in advance for that podcast, great. Then we'll include it on that. As I mentioned, we are a network. So Rings and Rituals is Marilyn and Dr. Sarah Brown are doing their coverage, their preseason coverage for Rings of Power Season 3.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_03] We'll shift dust. Alicia is just wrapping up on her silo coverage. Never mind the music. Nicole and Mark. Yeah, that's right. Nicole and Mark. I had a brain moment. Continue to talk about psychology and music, and they've got some great episodes lined up. They're in their third season right now. John is leading a book read-along with the guys from Radioactive Ramblings on the Cosmere books, the Brandon Sanderson books. Obviously, we've got coverage going on.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_03] Vision Quest right now is our big one that Alicia and John are covering on the main feed. And properly Howard fans, there is a new season incoming. And they have some interesting stuff going on. They're taking these pairs thematically linked movies that they took listener submissions from. And so that should be a lot of fun. Again, down at the bottom of the show notes, there's a Linktree link. It's a little mini webpage. We can keep all of our links and things organized.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_03] So go there if you want to get on the Discord, if you want to subscribe, if you want to find one of our affiliates, including Dungeons & Do-Rags, which is our latest, what do you call it? Affiliate podcast. They're having a lot of fun over there. Okay, that's done for me. Hopefully, you didn't suffer too much. But Duv, you should mention what's coming up on Eagle Eyes on our schedule for the rest of this year.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, thanks, David. The next one, I've heavily trailed on the Discord. I'm very excited about it. I know you are too, David, because it's going to be Aliens. Because it's such an urr text for Eagle Eyes. And because both David and I just love the hell out of that film, we're going to give it a special treatment. It's the 40th anniversary. Yeah. I can't believe it's 40th. Are we that old?

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_04] I don't. So because we're going to give it some special treatment for subscribers, there's going to be a special live watch.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_03] Is it going to be subscribers? We're making sausage here live on air. I thought we were just going to do it. It's going to be through the Discord. So you've got to be on the Discord to do it.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So if you're on the Discord, it's fine. So that's going to be the 14th of November. Timing's to be confirmed, but it's going to be, for our American cousins, it's going to be a matinee type showing.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_03] What did we say, like 2 p.m. Eastern, I think?

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, 2 p.m., 3 p.m. Eastern. So that's going to be, and that allows us, I'll say, the other side of the pond and some of our European law homes, particularly Alicia, because I know Alicia wants to get in on the live watch. But that's going to be exciting. So we're going to do a kind of Mystery Science 3000. I've got some notes, David, to give you about some ideas about how we can do that in a meaningful way without having to stop, start.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_03] Because if we did the whole stop and start and talk through every little thing, we'd never finish the movie. It'd be about 2 a.m.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Eastern time. Exactly. So we're going to do that. So, yeah, we're going to do an Aliens Live Watch, 14th of November. Get it in your diaries. I have put it in the Aliens thread on the Discord as well. So you'll see it.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, and I'll create an event for it once we lock the time in.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_04] And then we're going to do a deep, deep, deep, deep, deep dive into Aliens as a separate podcast.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_03] So that's great. And again, non-traditional. We're going to be thinking more about themes rather than we are about scene-by-scene breakdown. Scene-by-scene, yeah.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_04] So that's good. So after Aliens, we've got Band of Brothers at 25-year anniversary. And really looking forward to that because we're going to be joined by my own law brother, Brian8063. And I noticed, David, you dropped in that the Law Hands Battalion has seen fit for this episode to send us some additional resources. So our newly commissioned community co-host, Nate, is going to be coming up from the rear.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_04] He's going to join us on that one as well. So that's going to be an interesting one because that's going to be the four of us. You know, he was a tanker. Yeah, tanker.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_03] He was an armor guy.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, tanker. That was my first post in Germany was close support engineers. Okay. So we worked with the tankers. So yeah, I'm looking forward to having a chat with Nate. Yeah, that'll be fun. But that's going to be good. 25 years. I actually watched the HBO Legacy documentary today.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_05] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_04] Just reminded me how important a show that was. So that's going to be a good one. And then probably the last one of the year, we'll squeeze it in somewhere, is going to be a 1986, the recruiting poster, where we'll look at the thematic links between Top Gun, Iron Eagle, and Delta Force. So that's a broad spread, man. You know, you know. There's some, yeah, that's going to be an odd one.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_03] But they're all having a 1986 anniversary. So yeah.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's definitely going to be some interest in that chat. But I can see definitely Iron Eagle being an interesting one to talk about. So that's going to be good. So yeah, that's the slate for the rest of the year, I think.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_03] We had a whole bunch more, too, but we just have to be realistic with life and time. And we know that Platoon is out there as a big anniversary. I was doing a list. I was actually looking at the year in film in 1986, and man, 1986 was arguably one of the best years in the modern era of cinema, I would think.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_04] But yeah, we've got to be sensible, haven't we, David?

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Great. Well, let's do this. Let's take a very quick commercial break. And then when we come back, we'll get into our mission briefing and set up the spoiler freeze for the two shows we're going to talk about, Linus and Slow Horses. All right, we'll be right back. And we're back.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_03] All right, Stu, do you want to get us started on our mission briefing?

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, of course. So in the UK in particular, we hear a lot about, in inverted commas, a special relationship between the UK and the US. I don't know, is it something that, I mean, I know you know about the special relationship, David, but is it something that's mentioned?

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_03] I think it's enough out there that people get it, or if you mention it, that it's a thing. If you've studied history at all or watched any sort of spy films or whatnot, I think you would have that awareness.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_03] I think a lot of people may not understand the depth or the extent of it or how it sort of came about, especially given our entangled pre-early history.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_04] Well, you see, that's interesting because for those long-term subscribers, they will know how I like to have a little ongoing feud with John. John. Yes. The other law home. It's cousins having fun. It's all about the UK and the US, but it's all just- Cousins scrapping, right? Yeah. But that's kind of, for me, that's kind of a really interesting way to kind of look at the special relationship.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_04] And there is a well-known saying that Britain and America are two countries that are separated by a common language. Yeah.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_03] When I lived in London, half the time when we'd go out for smoke breaks with the team that I was working with, a good, I would say, third of our conversation was always about language differences and having fun with giving each other a little ribbing about the differences.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_04] Good-natured ribbing, isn't it?

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_03] Good-natured ribbing.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_04] So, really, we thought that would be the flavor of how we'd look at this episode, I think, and we thought it'd be a great use to frame Lioness and Slow Horses from that kind of special relationship. They're both very up-to-date representations of spies and espionage, obviously with Lioness being from the US and Slow Horses being from the UK. It's fair to say, very different shows. Lioness-

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_04] Stop it. Stop it. Lioness is a very slick, and I use the term kinetic look at a covert CIA team. Yes. It's headed up by Joe McNamara, who's played by Zoe Saldana, and I put her associated band of badasses, which are backed up by actually a pretty big-name cast. I mean, you've got Nicole Kidman in there as a main character.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_04] Obviously, off what we'd spoken about, I saw episode one of season one of Lioness, and then I just jumped straight into season three. Right. So I was quite surprised to see Morgan Freeman.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_03] A little halo jump there. Yeah.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. As Morgan Freeman as the main character. So yeah, it's got the support of a big-name cast Lioness.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_03] I've got some things to say about the Secretary of State involved in this. Anyway, we'll save that for when we're on the live fire range.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_04] When we're straight in there. And if you look at Slow Horses, it's very much more the kind of kitchen sink type drama approach to spies and spycraft. Very much through the lens of looking at a bunch of misfits and rejects in the security services out of the infamous Slough house. Poor Slough.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_03] Slough just gets it.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_04] Well-

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03] Wasn't the office set in Slough? Yeah.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_04] There's a reason, David. But I'm not going to say anymore. All right. But there's a reason. What's interesting about Slow Horses, though, is you have a Cold War veteran in there with Jackson Lamb, played by Sir Gary Oldman. A chap who's fair to say lives by Moscow rules, is fueled by whiskey and junk food.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_04] And I think it's fair to say, if you look at Lioness, it's very much through the lens of, I wouldn't say heroes, but, you know, very go-getting gung-ho types. Whereas it's fair to say the Joes of Slough Horses are nobody's heroes. I think that's a fair- I'm trying not to laugh. You told me to stop.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_04] In terms of the significance of both of those shows, I think we've mentioned this before with Paramount+. It's like, maybe it's got a limited scope in terms of its outreach because it's on a smaller streamer. So it's not a Prime, even though in the UK, season one was shipped out to Prime, to Amazon Prime. Okay. Oh, right.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, yeah. I think Netflix and Amazon are increasingly, or other studios are increasingly selling those kinds of things to try to build. Yeah. And if you're going to get market, if you're going to get a wide area effect, then Netflix and Amazon are both pretty big. And they're also, they're direct globally. Like, you don't have to go through some third-party thing or whatever. You just have them.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_04] Just gets it out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this show is actually loosely inspired by a real-life US military initiative, which was called Team Lioness, or the Female Engagement Team. It was actually established by the US Marine Corps and Army during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. So there is some historical context.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_04] I'm going to put down my own cash money to say that the reality of what Team Lioness was in reality versus Team Lioness on the show is probably a million miles apart.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_03] We're a little bit different.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas you look at Slow Horses, it's Apple TV, which is a premium streamer. It's one of their annual outputs.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, we should comment too really quickly. Sorry, to step back on Lioness. It's also part of the Taylor Sheridan cinematic universe. What's this? Taylor Sheridan. He is a – so Yellowstone – what was that? Oh, right.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_04] Okay.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_03] 1818 or something. That show that had Harrison Ford and Meryl – no, not Meryl. Was it Meryl Streep or was it Helen Miriam? I can't remember. I didn't watch it, obviously. And Landman. Oh, right. Okay. So he is a – and if you watched season three, episode one, I think his character's name is Cody in the big game. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_04] I've put that in. Yeah. I've put in some of the stuff. I didn't realize he'd done – I didn't realize he was trying to create his own Taylor Sheridan verse.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_03] Well, the crazy thing is that he's so prolific and I'm sure he has a writing team, but he basically approves – and I don't have inside information on this and I don't know the scope of this, but these are quote-unquote Taylor Sheridan shows. He approves – yeah, yeah, yeah. He approves – at least approves the scripts and he breaks the stories and probably approves the scripts. And his writers are – if he has a team, then they're writing to his spec.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_03] They film on his ranch in Utah or Nevada or wherever it is. And he has been a prolific producer, a nonstop churn factory of shows and concepts. And I believe his all-in deal, his overall deal at Paramount Plus is up.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_03] And I don't remember where he's going to, but then now with Skydance, Warner Mount, all of this – like it's such a confusing – the target – the battle space is so confusing right now that I have no idea who's friend or foe anymore. Everybody's popping smoke. Everybody's calling in airstrikes. People are getting, you know, let go all over the place. I have no idea what's going on in the industry right now, so I'm just letting it shake out before I make any comments.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_03] But yeah, this is a Taylor Sheridan show. Okay. Right. So – Which is why it's so muscular and gymnastic. Yeah. I can imagine. And the camera loves a certain relationship.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_04] Just put a pin in that. Yeah. Just loosen the pin. Yeah, right. Loosen the pin, ready for combat. So yeah, again, pivoting back to Slow Horses. So it is Apple show. It's a tentpole show for Apple. I think it's fair to say this is a must-watch show for both you and I, David. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_03] And the past seasons have felt very – there's been a couple of wonky seasons, but like this one's been pretty good. Oh, it's always – But yeah, it is an absolute watch season to season. It's on the calendar to watch it. Yeah, it's – and I would say it's almost like a pit for – you know, the pit for HBO. It's just like, okay, we've found the recipe. We've got the actors. We have the storyline.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_03] And we can churn these things out as – you know, we're overlapping productions and we're year to year on this until we're not. Right? Yeah, and I think –

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_04] I think it helps that it's based on that long-running series of books as well from Mick Heron.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_03] Really helpful.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_04] Really helpful. So it's almost like you've got it all laid out. Yeah. I think it's fair to say that it plays very fast and loose with, hey, UK security services function. But we'll go into that as we get into it. Yeah, I noticed you put a couple of side notes in about Len Dayton and John LeCari.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. I was on a flight recently and realized that I had forgotten any physical hard copy books. So I had my – but I had my phone with me. I was like, oh – and I was looking at my Kindle app. And I noticed that I had downloaded Berlin Game by Len Dayton, which is part of the Bernard Samson novels series. And then I saw Slow Horses as a suggested reading. Yeah. I was like, oh, isn't that interesting?

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_03] So I read the sample on Berlin Game. And I used to – I've read that many, many, many years ago when I was a teenager, I think. And I thought, well, if we're talking about Slow Horses, let me read at least book one of this to see how it is. Because obviously it's based on these books.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_03] And I was like, wow, there is a – I really would strongly say that in a modernized context, and again, the differences between how actual security services work, domestic security services actually work, versus what we do dramatically for on screen.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_03] And again, I'm only just starting the first book of the Slow Horses book series, that at least stylistically and in the way that the books are being approached, the Slow Horses books really do feel like they are the inheritor of Len Dayton with Berlin Game Mexico set London match.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_03] Also, the Carla novels of Le Caire – Le Caire, Le Caire – that's for John's sake – with the Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Spy, The Honorable Schoolboy, and Smiley's People. These are two heavyweight book series that have really influenced the spiescape for literature, not only literature, but what we see on screen and how those things are dry.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_03] So I would really say that the Slow Horses books are the – we would not have Slow Horses if not for Dayton and Le Caire.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_04] And I think it was interesting you put those two examples in the notes, because I think it's fair to say that the Cold War lies heavy on Slow Horses. 100%. Within the character of Jackson Lamb. So yeah, it makes perfect sense that you put those thematically in.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_03] The Lioness is post 9-11. And the security posture in the United States and the overseas engagements is really shaped by the 9-11 and America's response to that and where we got tangled up.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, definitely. Because Lioness leans heavily into that real world and current geopolitical themes.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_03] And the female engagement team was so that they could physically search. Yeah.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_04] Female. Female.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, whatever. Like if you're – you know, you can't – yeah, the idea of having a male soldier search a female civilian or possible combatant added a lot of complexities. Particularly in the Middle East. Yeah. Yeah. And funny enough, my wife and I, in prep for this, she watched a little bit of season three with me.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_03] And then I said, well, I got a little work to do tonight, so I need to watch episode one and episode – is it six or eight? I forget how many in the first season of Lioness. Anyway, the first and the last of season one, because I never actually watched season one. I started – I picked it up in season two and just dropped in and then carried on through when season three came out. So, I wanted to understand the ending of season three because it relates to stuff that goes on in season one. Yeah.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_03] And in the very first episode, they do talk specifically about the female engagement team and how it came about and how it evolved. And so, they do – and the fact that one of our main protagonists ends up joining the Marine Corps and that this was a Marine team. You know, this – Sheridan does a lot to interlink the show with grounding it in some actual reality.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. There is some context to it in real life. I mean, the show itself, I mean, it goes from the Middle East to Ukraine. I've used the term – it's very much the crunchy end of spies because you've got infiltration, rendition, assassination. So, it's the wet work end of espionage. Or the sharp – or the sharp – the pointy end of the stick. Yeah, the pointy end of the stick.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_04] Like, yeah, whereas the fuck-ups, the fuck-ups of Slay House and the Joes, you wouldn't want any of them anywhere near any kind of high stakes geopolitical tensions because God knows what would happen. But you flip that with Jackson Lam, who is a serious player. Yeah.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_04] You know, it's got that combination of ineptitude, earnestness, powered by copious Chinese meals, whatever alcoholic beverage, particularly red wine and whiskey, is to hand. And kind of the stench and lingering smell of stale cigarettes. That's Jackson Lam, isn't it? And somehow, even though they shouldn't be anywhere near it, Slay House always ends up in the thick of it.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely. Especially this season.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Especially this season. Definitely this season, yeah. Some light production details, so nothing deep dive. You've mentioned Taylor Sheridan.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_04] Funnily enough, I did check because I saw him in season three. Yeah. Because he plays a CIA operative or Delta, Delta Force, that's it. He's the leader of a Delta Force team. So, yeah, Cody Spears.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_03] And he's also in season two. He makes an appearance in season two.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_04] So he's getting himself in there. Yeah. It's very detailed. I mean, you can tell, you know, it's got a lot of realistic military stuff in there. And when I was looking, I didn't go into this whole Taylor Sheridan verse, but I noticed that he was the writer on Sicario. I did not know that.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_03] I did not know that. Well, now I'm going to go look at it.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_04] Which actually, I watched Sicario last week. It was just on. And it's one of those films that, you know, if you catch the first five or ten minutes of it, I just get sucked into it. But I can see the DNA of Lioness and how it's presented within Sicario.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_03] Not that I doubted you, but validated.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_04] You know.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_03] I had no idea because I actually enjoy that movie a lot. The way that they build tension, the way that they build mystery, the dynamic between Del Toro, Blunt, and Brolin is amazing. Emily Blunt, I'd follow her almost anywhere. She's one of my heroines. And I have yet to see Day of the Soldato, the second one, and I heard a third one's in production.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah, it's the Soldato one. I've seen them. Yeah. I think what was interesting, seeing Sicario, and then, yeah, okay, I could see that. I could see there's a linkage with Lioness. He's got no military background at all. But the production does have a dedicated team of Green Berets and SEALs. Right. They actually serve as technical and military advisors, which makes a lot of sense.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_04] You know, the cast, for example, are put through military boot camps.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_03] Clearly. The way the weapons handling, the familiarity with the gear.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, yeah. And it's just to give you that choreography of combat.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I think for us in Eagle Eyes, part of that verisimilitude is really important. Yeah. Weapons handling, reloading, you know, secondary explosions. There's a scene in Season 1, Episode 1, where there's a pretty large detonation and characters are, you know, still far away. But are directly affected by it.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_04] Disorientated. Yeah.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_03] And so, that level of verisimilitude is really important to when we are evaluating on screen. We've got some criticisms of the Slow Horse's season finale about that, you know, Infinite Magazine sort of stuff.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_03] So, it's that props to Lioness for at least technically achieving a very accurate depiction. When they're riding the benches on the Little Bird, you know, coming in, that's a real thing, right? When they're riding on the outside of those helicopters, that's a real thing.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_04] It is a real thing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's funny mentioning that I'd watched Legacy, Band of Brothers, 25 years, because it was Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, that really got production locked into this idea of if you want to create realistic-looking military films and TV shows, you've really got to kind of put the actors through at least some element of boot camps.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_03] Right, right.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_04] To give them just that little tiny taste. And it does, as you say, it does make it so much better in terms of how you engage with the show on that level.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_03] Even in Aliens with the Marine Combat team, they did a mini boot camp as well. And it turns out one of the sergeants, I'm blanking his name, of course, because my short term- A-Pone. A-Pone, thank you. I have only so much RAM. My brain has only so much RAM, and sometimes I have to pull things from long-term storage, and my hard drives spin pretty slow these days. A-Pone actually served in the military. So when they did their little boot camp, it was like, oh, hey, he actually knows what he's doing.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_03] But it clearly makes a difference to how the team physically moves through a space, how they cover. Somebody crosses in front of you, you lower your weapon. As they move out of your field of fire, you're back up on target. All of that kind of stuff is really important. If you're going to give an on-screen presentation for these kinds of things, and whatever your personal opinions are and values are about military and use of lethal force

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_03] and these kinds of things, we need to have realistic understandings, I think, in a way, because that helps us inform our choices that we make as citizens and citizenry, deciding what our military does. If we live in a country that has civilian-led military control by the civilian.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_04] Just as a slightly humorous aside, but on the same subject, I'm deep into playing Helldivers 2 with my two daughters. And it's a military game. It's very much like Starship Troopers. But the other night, I found that I was taking my girls through retreat drills, where one fires while one's running behind, stops, fires to cover you running behind,

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_04] as we were getting away from the enemy. And it just tickled me that I'm training my daughters in fire and maneuver techniques on a video game. But at that point, when you see it on screen and it's done well, it kind of almost sets you in.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_03] That was a bell ring for heat.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_04] Yes.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_03] A little minor spoilers for that is the bad guys are trying to get away from their big heist, the big climax of the action. There is a way that they're maneuvering and firing that everybody in the theater, then everybody afterwards who has any kind of proximity to this stuff. And even if you don't, just the precision of the movements communicates the professionalism of that character on screen. And it tells you something about the story.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_03] It tells you something about that character and what's going on here. And there's so many shows. I remember in an early season of The Walking Dead, they're escaping the ranch, they're driving in the back of the truck, and a bunch of untrained civilians are shooting zombies in a high-stress environment, and they're all getting headshot, single shot kills to the head.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_03] And I'm like, no, that is not possible. That is-

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_04] There's stuff going everywhere.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And you're talking about fractions of a millimeter, and your downrange where your bullet goes is off by feet, if not yards. And so, and I was just like, okay, suspend verisimilitude, suspend disbelief, and this is a comic, it's worse than a comic book. It's kind of a kid's story. Yeah. And so these kinds of things really add to the gravity of a show. And when we get into Delta Force, it's going to be really interesting, right?

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, that's spray and pray. But it's funny you mention heat, because that's actually used today, still shown- Yes. In marine combat training as the correct way in combat to fire, maneuver, cover, and change magazine.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_04] So, you know, you're right, when it gets done well, it lands.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_03] And it's the clarity of it is, the clarity of the Saving Private Ryan beach landing, right? The clarity of Band of Brothers when they're assaulting the emplacement of 88s.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_03] You know, all of these things like, oh, okay, this is what combat looks like. This is how it happens. This is what gets done and is done to human bodies. And it's helpful to understand that, I think, to have a realistic perspective.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_04] And flipping that then over to slow horses. Mick Heron himself- Right. Has said- The author of the books. Yeah, the author of the books has said he would make an awful spy, because he says he doesn't even own a smartphone or Wi-Fi. And the inspiration for Slayer House, because he's got no connection with security services at all. The inspiration came from just observing commuters and office life on his daily travels around London.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_04] And it just gave him this thought of- Just ordinary, normal people. But could they be doing extraordinary things? Which I think is really interesting. Season one and season five of Slow Horses actually had a showrunner, which was Will Smith. But that's changed in season six to Gabby Chiapi. And this is the weird thing about Slow Horses, as we've already alluded to. They've got a rolling production going. Yeah.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_04] So they've actually got a new showrunner, Ben Vanstone, for season seven. And I think it's fair to say in season six there's a definite shift in tone and presentation from prior seasons. But we'll dive into that.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I'll let fly one of my hot takes for this. Since we're here, we might as well. That one of the things that I really enjoyed about season six this year of Slow Horses, it felt spooky. It felt tense. It felt creepy. And then I was like, oh, hey, it's October. It's spooktober. It's perfect.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_03] It fits so well into my holiday vibes, things that are going on. I think it was after episode five. I was like, wow, this is... I'm creeped out. The camera angles, the lighting, the music. There was the usual fart joke sort of Jackson Lamb stuff. But then there was this underlying sense of dread by... Unsettling.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, very unsettling.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_03] Very. And some really intense encounters and set pieces that were there. So, like, kudos for them, you know, whether it was intentional or not. Just the fact that this season landed, the tone of this season and the month that it landed in. Perfect.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_04] Cool. It shouldn't come as... Any surprise to people who watch Slave Horses to say that no members of the security services, whether it be current or X, act as any technical advisors. And I pulled this fantastic little quote from the actual MI5 Director General. The first desk of the real world. He's actually shared he loves... He's a big fan of... He calls himself a Slow Horses man.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_04] But he just treats it purely as entertainment rather than as any depiction, accurate or not, of the services. And yeah, I can well imagine that.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_03] Well, again, another quick hot take is that when Slow Horses season one started up, I started to approach it as if it were going to be the agency season one.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm. And that the story is continuous. It's not ensemble. It's... Or not an anthology. It's a rolling story. That it's... In the way that it's building, it's really, really well done for what it is, regardless of the fact that there are no dogs and there are no...

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_03] You know, the command center at the park is not completely empty and dark at two o'clock in the morning or whatever.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_04] The park doesn't exist. No. You know, I know where MI5 is. Well, this is the funny thing is it's a mashup of MI5 and MI6.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_03] Right. What's that building on the South Bank there over by the... That's Thames House.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. That's MI5. Right. Oh, no, sorry. You mean the one that you've got the newer building. Yes. Which looks like it's got the crown on top. That's MI6. Okay. There's an older building, more in the center of Westminster, which is Thames House. Okay. That's MI5. Got it. Just very quickly, Lioness, when it first came out, got a little bit of a pan in by critics and audience. At the beginning. You get a surprise. At the beginning.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_04] But... And this intrigued me when I dived into this. It gets 75% to 80% on Rotten Tomatoes. It's got... Tomatoes. Everyone, just...

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_03] I'm sorry, Doof. Is that Tomatoes? Tomatoes. Oh, shut up. Tomatoes. Tomatoes. Rotten Tomatoes. This special relationship is alive and well.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_04] People love to hear you earlier. What did you say? Your Brummie. Your Brummie. Yeah, the Brummie accent. Yeah. Oh, dear. So, yeah. So, IMDb, 7.8 out of 10. Metacritic, 61. So, you know, that's a pretty solid, respectable rating.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_03] So, more hot take. My wife and I are watching... We're watching Season 1, Episode 1 last night. And there's a scene where one of the protagonists, she's going through some stuff about, you know, a little backstory story of how she becomes engaged with the Lioness team. And, damn it, Doof, the pathos had me by the shirt collars.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_03] I wasn't physically tearing up, but I felt the rising tension in my chest. Was it not Gorge? There is something about this show that is utterly ridiculous. It is so physically over the top. It is so glossy. It is so jingoistic. It is such... You hear a character start spouting off on something, and we've got a clip of Joe, of Zoli Saldana, sort of giving a thesis.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_03] A statement for the show. We'll play that later in the full spoiler section. But you can hear Taylor Sheridan's opinions about things being spoken by the actors and the characters. And yet, and yet, it has these pretty reasonable scores across the services. And people are moved. And if you go into the Reddits and people talking about Joe and her family and the kids and the team.

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_03] And there is something that Sheridan does in the writing and the character portrayals that reaches into that, you know, that pathos. And, and scratches some kind of itch. It, there's a feel good quality to it that is smuggled in. And why, I believe you said your spouse, your wife enjoys it, watching it too, right?

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, it's, my wife and my youngest have watched all three seasons.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_03] Why? How, that's wild, right? That is an absolutely wild statement. And yet, it's the truth.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_04] Do you know what it is? It's, the lioness is the candy corn. A hundred percent. There you go. I'm crossing the streams. But yeah, that's what it is.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_03] We've been having a big, if you're not on the subscriber channels or on the, on the discord, we've been having a rolling debate about candy corn. It's kind of like pineapple on pizza kind of scenario.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_04] I'm not even going to go there.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_03] No, that's a, that's a big one. That's a, that's a nuclear strike for first strike.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_04] That is a first strike. Yeah. So just, yeah. So on Slow Horses, I think it's fair to say it's critically acclaimed. 98% on Rotten Tomatoes across pretty much all the seasons. Tomatoes. 8.4 on IMDb. Stop it. It's, it's pretty award winning. I mean, you've got primetime Emmys for outstanding directing for a drama series, outstanding writing for a drama series.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_04] It's BAFTA's best writer. And I put a note in, is, is Slow Horses one of your S tier shows?

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_03] I saw this note and I, my heart has been in conflict with itself for this entire conversation about whether this is an S tier or not. A tier for sure. Yeah. But is it S tier? Because when it comes back to that verisimilitude question again, it does fail on that front for me. Yeah. Because it is ridiculous. Yeah. There are things that happen in season six that I'm just like, absolutely no way.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_03] There would be the response of, of a trail of bodies and it would, no spoilers, would be ridiculous. Off the scale. It would, it would throw sand in all the gears of all the machinations of all the players in this. So we'll land on A tier then. Absolutely. Top, top, top of A tier for sure. In terms of production and acting. So it's a kind of hard thing. Like, where do you start to break down? And, you know, overall, no, it's not because of story.

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_03] But because of character and writing and production values. Although production, man, it's so fricking moody in the color grading, the blue scale. There you go. It's over the top. So it's just, ah. Right.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_04] Maybe, maybe you've just got to keep having, you know, the conflict of your heart. Maybe you've just got to keep going with it and we'll see.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_03] I'm not going to not watch. And obviously they rolled out a preview of season seven immediately after the screen goes to black. Like you could not watch it.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_04] No. And I'm just like, feed it to my eyeballs right now. I want that season.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_03] Especially with the ending that we got. We're like, ah, there's like a perfect. That is a cliffhanger ending. That is a absolute classic cliffhanger.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_04] We'll get to that. I think it's fair to say that after what we've just done, that little chat about A tier versus S tier. Let's very quickly go on to the rounds on target scale for both Lioness and Slow Horses. And let's look at Lioness first.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. First, before we do that, though, I have to, going back to Mick Herron's comment about being an awful spy and watching people commuting and that kind of stuff. But required viewing for you, Duv, and for any committed Eagle Eyes listeners is, what's the name of the damn show? Sandbaggers. Thank you. The Sandbaggers. It should be available. I believe it's on Prime. There are other ways to see it as well.

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_03] It's an older ITV, I believe it was. Yeah, Tim McHugh.

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_04] Tim McHugh.

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_03] It is more accurate and it is more properly assessed in terms of what it might be like and what they were doing. And what you're mostly doing most of the time is people in rooms talking and arguing over budgets and trying to work out a bunch of political inter-office machinations, let alone what the Russians are doing or what the Czechs are doing or something like that.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_04] And I imagine smoking an absolute shit ton of cigarettes.

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, my God. And yes, and drinking a shit ton of scotch and whiskey. Cool. You wonder why we were all so miserable and, you know, whatever, because people were waking up with an elephant on their chest and a throbbing headache. Horrible. What? The poisons that were just... Anyway, moving on. That's all right.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_04] So, yeah. So, let's look at rounds on target for Lioness. So, what would you give it, David? What would you give it?

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_03] So, one of the things I was thinking, too, was, like, should we start to break out different target zones here in terms of story, acting, editing, and production? I could do. I mean, in this one... Am I throwing a hand grenade or am I firing a sniper rifle here? I'm not sure.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, from my perspective, I thought it's quite clear cut for me between the two. Yeah. So, I might as well just say what. So, for me... Yeah. I felt rounds on target for Lioness was, like, a plus one. Okay. Or maybe even plus two. Purely because it is... You know, you have... You can see that the technical team have worked very hard with the actors. The actors are doing a good job of portraying reels. The cinematography is off...

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Some of the cinematography in the final episode of season one, off the charts skill. So, for me. Focus racking, floating camera, you know, big zooms. So good. Drone shots. They love their drones on Lioness.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_04] So, it felt like... I've given it that kind of plus two just because it's kind of on steroids. It's...

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_03] It's got high tea. I took a drink just as you said. And I'm thinking of the one character on the QRF. What's his name? I got to scroll down to the thing. Don't... Didn't I put in all the... I forget his name now. You did at the bottom. Is it further down? Where'd it go? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There we go. Oh, I know why. It's because it's closed on the thing. Let me open it up. There it is. There's the QRF. Is it... Randy? Or Tucker?

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_03] I think it's Tucker.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_04] One of them is pretty voided out.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, dude. My dude is... Yeah, it's Tucker. LaMonica Garrett is the actor. And he, boy, that man has a build that just does not quit. And you want to... I'm not sculling him. I don't think he's a steroid user. He doesn't look like he has that. But he has such an amazing fatigue. Oh, my God. His muscles are to die for.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_04] So you've got Lioness with a plus two for me. And I've got like minus three for slow horses. But I'm focusing on that essence of... What's our scale here? Zero? So zero is like perfect. Exactly. Perfect eagle eyes. Yes. So yeah. So it's minus three. That's not throwing shade on the characters, the acting, the production, or anything like that.

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_04] It's merely because it's, as you've already alluded to, David, it's kind of like a fantasy view of spies and espionage. So that's my scores for Lioness over the top plus two. Gotcha. Fantasy minus three.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_03] Right. Down and to the left. So what about you, do you think? I'm not... I don't think I'm far off on you there. Slow horses, the characters are fun. They're interesting. It's uncomfortable. It gets into my cringe scale. There's some definite cringe humor with the characters. Not with Lamb, because he's Jackson Lamb, but between River and... And what's her name? Elisa? Who came back? Slow horses. Louisa. Louisa? Louisa.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, Louisa got... Yeah, Louisa. You know, there's definitely some... With Roddy, especially last season with Roddy. I was like, oh no. I almost bailed on the season last season, on season five. So if we talk season to season, man, yeah, that was like a minus four for me. Oh, all right. Okay. But this season... See, and this is where my heart, being in conflict with itself, is on a story and acting level, it's a zero.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_03] Like, they zeroed it in. They had me. Once I got locked into the season after about episode two, I was like, oh, yeah, don't... What? Six episodes? No. No, I need 12. I need 10. 12, yeah. You know, keep this going. So overall... So are we doing this for the season or for the series? Season, I guess.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_04] Season, yeah. Yeah. Let's stick with the season. So I think it's fair, the comments you've had there. And I can see why you'd give season six of Slow Horses that kind of bang on.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_03] Right. It's in my top ten for the year.

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_03] So that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, so I'd say like a minus one for me. It's all subjective at the end of the day. Mostly because River's stupid move. We'll talk about that.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_04] We'll talk about that.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_03] For a Lioness, yeah, I think a plus three or a plus two. Because I do take your comments about the fact that they are working hard on the verisimilitude. All of the actors are just leaning into the bit. But I mean, what's her name? Nicole Kidman. What's his name? Who's the deputy director? I've got to scroll down. I always forget his name.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_03] He's got a very complex, long...

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, he's done a lot, hasn't he? Yeah. I know who you mean. I can see his face.

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_03] There's a name in our list. I'm blanking his name now.

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_04] Okay. Well, this is a good opportunity because we need people to access... Oh, no, it's Michael Kelly. No, he's right. There you go. That's the right guy.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, it was the correct one. I was thinking he was somebody else. No worries. You know, they lean into the bit so deeply. Morgan Freeman's just phoning it in.

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, yeah. He doesn't do shit. He's getting a paycheck. He needs some green, I think.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, he can just sit. He doesn't do anything.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_04] He doesn't do anything.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_03] He wears a nice suit. He sits on camera. So, yeah, I'm going to give it a... Are we going half scores here? 2.5?

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_04] You can do whatever you want.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_03] All right. Plus 2.5. Five. I'd go plus three for the ridiculous, beautiful... Oh, and the relationships. Oh, my God. No, no, stop. Look. See, got to save it. So, yeah. So, I'm going to go 2.5 because there are... It would be higher if it were a joke and they didn't ground it as so tightly with the technology and the gear and the movements and the training and just everybody just leaning into it as far as they can lean into it.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_03] Then it would be up in the, you know, plus five or six range. But it holds itself and it holds its own. And damn it, it grabs you by the lapels from a story standpoint. The characters are compelling. They're interesting. They're beautiful to look at. Every guy and gal on this show is eye candy, you know, in some way, shape, or form for somebody. Like there's a lot going on on screen. And if you're a gear nut, there's lots of cool gear to look at as well, you know?

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_03] So, I think it's... Okay, now I'm talking myself down to a plus two.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_04] You've just put down there and I'm going to go straight into hot takes, David. Go for it. So, I'm starting with Lioness, right? So, settle back.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_03] Cleared hot.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Danger close. Because I'm going to get spicy on this. My overriding impression of Lioness is that it's like a Call of Duty cutscene. That's been stretched out to a full season.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_03] It's like a bunch of... That is a damn good take. That is an amazing take. I love that. I absolutely love that.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_04] It's like a bunch of execs got around a table and said, do you know what we really need? It's a show that just takes those cutscenes in Call of Duty. It just does it for an hour. That's what we need. Because it's like... It's like... It is literally... Like someone's been playing Call of Duty Medal of Honor and loved the bit... Loved all the bits before you actually have to control anything.

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_04] Let's just keep going. Yeah, we could do a whole season on stuff like that. I mean, you have got every Special Forces cliche that is there. You know, guys with beards, tats, Oakleys, ball caps, underarm shirts, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. All there. I mean...

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_03] With the kofias, right? You know, wearing the... Yeah.

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. I mean, I put down you could play Tier 1 bingo with Lioness. And I've got to be honest, if you played bingo with it, the game wouldn't last very long because you shout Hags probably within the first two minutes. I mean, I particularly chuckled. So I started, as I said, with the pilot on Season 1. Right. And it was that literally, that first five minutes

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_04] that I was like, right, I can see where this show is.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_06] Mm-hmm.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_04] I can see who it's aiming at. And, oh, look, Leo pointing me. She just said, danger, close fire mission. And that was it. It was like, if I could leave it there, I probably don't need to watch anything else. But I did. I watched the whole...

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_03] The one saving grace is they haven't held up the closed fist for an immediate halt. I haven't seen any of that anywhere. They don't need to. They're so good that they don't even need the closed, raised fist. It's just...

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, you know, looking at this season, there is a lot of, obviously, stuff with Delta Force. And there's banter between the Delta guys and the CIA. And there's a little bit of rubbing up against each other the wrong way. But it's like so tropey. I mean, I've written down... I've written down there's so much big T energy. You can practically smell it through the screen. It's just like, oh, my.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_03] Do you think that everybody's required to take a testosterone testing?

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_04] Even the ladies. Yeah. Yes. It's just got that. I mean, if you're being charitable, it's like it's muscular TV. You know? It's like... I watched it. And like I've said, it was like an extended Call of Duty cutscene. But it's like... And even Michelle, even my wife Shelley said this. She goes, particularly this season, it's very...

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_04] You know, just be careful if I'm going to say something that's derogatory, but I don't mean it derogatory. It's very tits and ass.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. There's a real... I mean, the show is wholly through the lens of the male gaze. Mm-hmm. Which for a show with the title Lioness...

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_06] Mm-hmm.

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_04] ...about a female forward CIA team is pretty bad.

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_03] My wife asked if there are any gay male relationships depicted on screen. And I said, nope. No. Just Joe and her husband and a few of the operators, the female operators. Yeah. And you get... And you get... And in season one, an operator and target.

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_04] And you do get in season... You do get that relationship between two of the team, female to female. But it's purely...

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_03] It's eye candy. And we spend so much screen time with it. You know? So... It's eye candy. It's eye candy. But it's not. It's just... It's not for the... So there's no story. There's no... There's nothing that... It doesn't bring anything to the story. No. With the time that we spend on screen... Okay, fine. They're in a relationship. And fine. You know? Okay, this is... This... They're going to get together now or whatever. That's fine. Cut. No. There's extended... Lingering scenes. Yes.

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. The camera lingers. And that, to me, leans heavily into that kind of Call of Duty. It's... Right. This is aimed at, like, you know... Oh, wouldn't it be hard if... Teenagers... Yeah. Teenagers who are, you know, playing COD in their basement or stuff like that. And this is their... This is their idea of, you know, a kick-ass. You know, taking names. Right. Military, CIA type thing. So, that's that.

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_04] And then, with all the bad shit and all the things that I don't like about representations of military and things like that on screen, I kept watching it. That's what this show does to people. I kept watching it. I was like, I've got to watch the next episode.

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_04] And you, when we were talking about this on, you know, together, you said, yeah, it's a real story versus storytelling type thing. You might not dig on, like, how they're showing you what's going on, but you get invested in the story itself. So, when I was doing the outline, I was honest with myself and I said, you know, I have massive problems with this show. It's not my cup of tea.

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_04] I'll put season four on the watch list, but then, nah. I don't think I will. If I'm being really honest with myself, I don't think I'm going to watch season four. I can quite happily carry on with my life, not having to worry about Joe, her team, you know, how they're affording their, you know, under armour shirt addictions.

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_04] I just, it's just like.

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_03] That's a deep cut right there.

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_04] That hurts. It hurts. So, come on. I want to hear your hot takes, David, on this.

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_03] So, for me, I think I've said a lot already through the top of the conversation. And I'll just, just quickly to reiterate, it is Taylor Sheridan's opinion show. He gets to state his opinions about world affairs and he gets to enjoy his boy fantasies, like you pointed out.

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_03] Wouldn't it be cool if these two hot chicks got it on and then like strapped up with their kick-ass AR style weapons and body armour and flew choppers around and rode the benches and all that kind of stuff. And then he gets to opine about geopolitics and what's going on. Season two is sort of south of the border. Season one is Middle East and oil oriented.

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_03] Season three is backlash reactions to some of that and involving Ukraine and what's going on there. And Iran gets folded in as well. And so, he gets to opine about all of those kinds of things. It doesn't jump the shark, like I said, because they ground it and the verisimilitude is present.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_03] And the character dramas are, there's some weird compelling thing that he does with the camera work, the music, the alchemy of competent camera, better than competent. Competent camera operators, better than competent cinematographers for the lighting and setups. Really solid performances by the actors. Oli Soltania is great.

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_03] And Sheridan has a way of finding these deep core human motivations about being connected, about found family, about living your values and your beliefs. And that he is able to create this witch's brew that absolutely works on keeping eyeballs on episode to episode and season to season.

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_03] And regardless of what Nicole Kidman has to say or Zoe Soltania has to say about season four, because you know the rest of the actors would love to keep getting that paycheck. But those two heavy hitters, and then Friedman's on for the ride. It feels like Friedman's on for the ride. Michael Kelly is a great character actor. He's going to take a job wherever he can take a job. And that's not denigrating him in any way.

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_03] He's a working actor. He wants to act. That's his job. So he's going to take the role. And the complicated things that this show does, it's actually having – there's a resonance effect within the American watching public for this show. That is bizarre. Given how ridiculous and over the top it is, and yet something underneath – and this is Sheridan's magic.

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_03] This is his – what he does, how he dazzles us. Same with Yellowstone, which is, I think, had the most minutes – I don't know. It's like Yellowstone is off the charts on the streamer metrics, right? Off the charts. You cannot put Yellowstone into any other watch metrics because it completely throws the scales off for everything else. It's like YouTube compared to all the other streamers. There's just no way you can compare YouTube to an HBO or to Netflix.

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_03] It just dwarfs. Yellowstone just dwarfs everything.

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_04] I think it's going to be interesting exploring some of what you're saying there when we go into the spoiler territory.

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_03] You mean for the second hour of this podcast?

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is funny. Well, to be fair, I mean, as we've already alluded to, we could have done an entire season of Slow Horses. Yeah. Well, switch gears.

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_03] So Slow Horses. Slow Horses.

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_04] So I said it. It's a must-watch show. You know, this is definitely one of those ones. Every single year, myself, my wife, Shirley, can't wait to see it. We can't wait for the next season. We always watch the coming soon. Right. I said to you, just give it to me in my eyeballs. I need that. So whilst I've just ragged on Lioness, I think you can probably sense that. For Slow Horses, it's a favorite show for me.

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_04] And I think what I like and what is my hot take is that this is the British civil service approach to espionage. 100%. Which you've already mentioned when you're thinking of characters like George Smiley in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_04] It's the people talking in the rooms to deal with the situations, to come up with the ways to solve problems, rather than, you know, busting in kinetic entry, weapons hard. Right. You know, stun grenades.

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_03] Coming in off the, yeah, fast roping off a helicopter.

[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_04] Off a little bit. Yeah, it's on the spectrum. You know, they're dealing with, both shows are dealing with similar areas, but on completely different and opposite ends. And I always think, whilst they up to the action quota in season six, I know there's some problems. I've got some problems, but we'll dive into that after the break.

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_04] But really, the biggest take I want to give people is, if you want to watch a show that's well-written, well-acted, has fantastic production, tells a fantastic story, and you want to see Sir Gary Oldman just absolutely loving life, just absolutely going for it.

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_03] He completely disappears. He is, I do not see Gary Oldman on screen. Jackson Lamb is who I see. I see River Cartwright. I see, what's his name? The actor. Jack Lamb. Yeah. Jack Lamb. I see him. Yeah. But when I look at Jackson Lamb, I do not see Gary. That's Jackson Lamb. Yeah.

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, he's playing the hell out of that role. And I think, and this is just my personal opinion, that is the role that he's going to be most remembered and recognized for. I think so. So he's like, he's thinking, I'm on this ride. I'm going to enjoy the hell out of it. I am going to give it everything I've got. This will be his last hurrah. And that's a good actor. Yeah.

[01:16:06] [SPEAKER_03] There's no topping this role afterwards.

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_04] No. And as you've said, it's a perfect show for this time of the year. You know, you've got that fading autumnal light. Settle in. Cozy up. Get on the sofa. Cozy up. Just enjoy the hell out of this show. That's my hottest take. So what about you? Sweet.

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_03] Again, I'll just be reiterating a lot of stuff I said. Bounced off it at first. Came back. Stayed with it. Last season was weird. Had a lot of weird tonal shifts. The Roddy stuff really threw me. And then Jackson Lamb was just everywhere at the right moment at the right time with a Jackson Lamb-ism. You know, and whatever. This season, return to form. Amazing. It's better than form. I think this is the peak season for me. This is the best season of Slow Horses.

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_03] There's a lot that I've forgotten because we're six seasons in. So there's some characters and stuff that goes on. I was like, oh, I had to kind of work to get back to it. That was fine. The show doesn't treat you like a kid. The show treats you like an adult viewer. And you ride with it. You go with it. It's funny. All of the funny stuff was there that I needed to make Slow Horses be Slow Horses. All the character cringe was there.

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_03] Some of the pathos was there, especially if you know a little bit of a backstory around Standish. And they allude to it, but it's actually in one of the early chapters of the book. He does these character profiles of everybody. And I got so much more about Catherine Standish's struggles, personal struggles, why she's there, what happened with her.

[01:17:52] [SPEAKER_03] And they play with that a lot in her character arc of this season. So really appreciated that. And like I said before, that it's a rolling story and not an anthology story, I think is great. Dial back on the color grading. You know, we get it. It's London in the fall. It's wet. It's gross. Or maybe that's the summer now since the climate has changed so weirdly.

[01:18:20] [SPEAKER_03] But dial it back a little bit. But otherwise, absolutely required viewing. And we should talk about episode-to-episode coverage for Season 7. Assuming that some of the DNA of this season is going to be at play. Seems a little bit more kinetic next season. Yeah. If you watch what's coming on, a little bit more high stakes out in the open as opposed to a little bit in the shadows. So, you know, they're playing with it a little bit.

[01:18:49] [SPEAKER_03] But I think it's worth us thinking about some kind of coverage format. Even if it's more of a snapshot coverage, just sort of vibes and takes rather than scene by scenes. I think it would be worthwhile for Lorehounds to get some, as we say, rounds on target.

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_04] Good stuff. Okay. I think what we're going to do is we'll take a swift break. And then after that, it's fully open for spoilers. And we'll go probably first into you, David, with Lioness. So, see you after the break.

[01:19:30] [SPEAKER_03] And we are back. Okay. Got your plates on and your ear protection and eye protection on because we're coming in on starting up with Lioness. So, we got a little story synopsizes. Synopsizes. Is it synesis? What's the plural of synopsis?

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_04] Synopsizes.

[01:19:55] [SPEAKER_03] And so, let's talk about Lioness. Oh, so we said Lioness first, right? Yeah. So, Joe McNamara is abducted by following an operation involving Russian intelligence figure Alexei Yurimov, prompting her team and CIA superiors to organize her rescue and investigate who ordered it. After being recovered, Joe pursues those responsible while Caitlin Mead and Brian Westfield authorize retaliation against Ukrainian double agent Oleksandra.

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_03] The investigation ultimately reveals that Alia Amrohi, whose father was killed during Cruise's season one mission. So, Cruise is one of the characters in the season one mission. Orchestrated the abduction as a revenge. Season ends with Joe returning home to find that Neil and their daughters have left while Alia remains as an active threat.

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_03] But, so, you did a halo jump, high altitude, low opening, and you came in on this season three with only having one iota of an inkling of a potential what this cliffhanger season. It's not a cliffhanger season, but it's a good just regular season. Did you know who Alia was at the end when they did the reveal about who orchestrated? No, but I kind of guess.

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_04] Season one episode. Yeah, but I mean, and that's it. I didn't know exactly who that character was, but I guessed it would have been, you know, someone. Somebody introduced. Yeah, and I actually wrote down, God, melodrama, you know. It's like a trope that's used so overused. Right. You know, so, and for me, that goes to some of the hot takes I had before.

[01:21:46] [SPEAKER_04] Or it's not sucking me in enough to want to then say, oh, well, you know, is Joe going to be able to dodge this? Is Joe going to reconcile with the fact, you know, it's just, it's kind of like, yeah, okay. Tick. Fine. How much do you want me to spoil the end of season one? Spoil it, why? Because I'm not going to watch it.

[01:22:07] [SPEAKER_03] I think you should watch the final episode. Okay. Regardless. Really? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Okay. It depends if you're going to watch season four. If you think you're going to watch season four, then watch the end of season one. And I would recommend that to anybody. Just skip the middle of season one. Just watch the first and the last episodes. So Cruz is sent in on her mission. She meets Alia in wherever they were, Kuwait or something like that. And that's her target.

[01:22:34] [SPEAKER_03] And she's trying to get to Alia's dad, who is a oil magnet guy. And he's responsible for, you know, death and destruction or whatever. Cruz. And then there's this big wedding. They're at this big resort. And I forget where they're in the Amalfi coast or something like that. And over the course of season one, Cruz and Amalia have had a relationship. An intimate relationship and are kind of in love with each other.

[01:23:03] [SPEAKER_03] And Cruz as the agent is compromised. Oh, my, you know, the target is, you know, I'm using this person to get to something else. And that I've fallen in love with this person now. And she's surprised, ends up killing the groom. And then her target, the father, in this really just wildly violent, brutal mental. It is in the kitchen with a kitchen calorie. It is rough.

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_03] Cruz goes wild and blood's everywhere. And it's like, oh, man, it is nasty. So, the fact that Joe's team brutally murders her fiance, who she hates, and her father, who she loves but also is conflicted about, on the evening of her, you know, the night before her wedding.

[01:23:59] [SPEAKER_03] And the person responsible is this woman who is her lover, you know, love of her life, last chance. I'm never going to, I got to marry this guy and be in this traditional stuff. But it turns out this woman that I've fallen in love with, it was actually an agent playing me all the time. And was it all real and whatever? So, it is a, you know, hell hath no fury kind of situation for why Joe is abducted. What I think is interesting, though, is the various stages of cutouts that they use.

[01:24:29] [SPEAKER_03] So, they're, and this is what's really interesting about this season is what's being reported is that Russian intelligence services, and probably Iranian as well, are using low-level criminal cutouts to affect a bunch of operations and destabilization operations and threat-based operations. And, you know, the weird, dirty tricks that go on where it's not, we didn't kill you, but we could have killed you.

[01:24:58] [SPEAKER_03] So, like, you know, you know that we know that you know kind of stuff. They're using an Uber style, you know, Uber for terrorism. You know, teenagers and street-level criminals to do all this random stuff. The airbase situation that happened in the UK, right? That just recently. Yeah.

[01:25:22] [SPEAKER_03] And the thwarted attack in Germany, that would have been devastating if that had gone off, if they hadn't caught it. So, Sheridan is using real-time intelligence and real-time open-source intelligence about how operations work. And then that he stages it behind a Ukrainian front, right?

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_03] You know, this Ukrainian operation and this Ukrainian double agent behind Belarusian agents, behind Russian agents. But no, really, it's an Iranian guy. And in fact, he's being set up because it's all of a revenge plot.

[01:26:02] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_03] It's a little convoluted. It's intricate. It's an intricate swish watch works.

[01:26:10] [SPEAKER_04] I'll use convoluted. Ridiculous. Ridiculously convoluted. But I mean, this goes back to that thing I said about, yeah, even though it's not for me, I was sucked into the story versus the storytelling. Ridiculous.

[01:26:28] [SPEAKER_04] So, you know, having Joe as the target and the, you know, and effectively for that season in particular, the focus on, oh, you know, the mystery of who's taken Joe. Is Joe going to survive? All this kind of stuff. It did pull me in.

[01:26:45] [SPEAKER_03] And the parallel storytelling, the parallel timelines.

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_04] It didn't. That didn't. I didn't bounce on that at all. I found that really good. You know. It was well integrated.

[01:26:52] [SPEAKER_03] It worked pretty well as a, not Rashomon style, but just time. I don't know what to call it, but time jumping sequences.

[01:27:02] [SPEAKER_04] And I can kind of see. And I suppose I'm a good example of this. I'd only seen that one episode of season one. I hadn't seen anything else. So I didn't have a lot of.

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_03] Season ones and twos track time, linear timeline. They don't do anything funny with the stories.

[01:27:16] [SPEAKER_04] But I was able to just get it, get into the story very quickly. So there's that, you know. Yeah. It was easy to consume. Yeah. It is. It's like, I mean, I suppose a good way of looking at it is it's almost like an airport novel, you know. Yeah. Yeah. An airport novel of a show where you don't have to engage your brain too much. You can just get into it. You're turning the page. You want to see how the story resolves.

[01:27:47] [SPEAKER_04] But yeah, that's, I think you said it right. Pulp. Pulp.

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. It's high class pulp. It's Shake Shack for Americans who know that. It's a fast food burger brand. Do you know what? But they use quality ingredients and they pay their employees a reasonable salary. So it's up from McDonald's, but it's below the pub that does some gourmet, you know, stuff. Some local pub that does.

[01:28:12] [SPEAKER_04] When we were in New York, I liked Shake Shack. We went to Shake Shack. It's nice. It's good.

[01:28:15] [SPEAKER_03] And you walk in, you know what you're going to get. You're going to get quality. You're going to get consistency and it's going to taste good. And you're going to feel good because they're quote unquote using whole ingredients and they're quote unquote paying their employees a fair wage. I don't know. I can't validate any of those claims. So if somebody wants to point out the inshittification of Shake Shack, that's fine. But it's supposed, that's the model that they're building on. And it's a, it's a step up from microwaved McDonald's or Burger King. If I ever, if we ever want fast food support for that.

[01:28:46] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Mark her. I should.

[01:28:50] [SPEAKER_03] Too late. Yeah. Got me.

[01:28:53] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, I can see why, um, like my wife and my daughter, I've watched every, every season and we'll watch season four because it's hot.

[01:29:03] [SPEAKER_03] It's a hot show.

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_04] They're invested in the story. Sure. Joe and her husband, Joe and her daughters. Exactly. So they'll want to know, um, who actually ordered, you know, who, who's behind. It's not just that, but who's, who's also behind that. And have they got the mole and there'll be like key things within the season.

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_03] Do they like Brian Westerfield or no, no, sorry. Do they like, um, uh, Neil Mick, uh, McNamara that plays Joe's husband. Do they like his salt? Yeah. McNamara. Do they like his, uh, salt and pepper?

[01:29:42] [SPEAKER_04] Hey, look, man, I'm salt and pepper.

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, you are. You are. I think work those shoulders a little bit more, get the rowing machine a little bit more to get the same kind of physique he's got, but you're close.

[01:29:51] [SPEAKER_04] You're not close. You're not far off. But do you know what I mean? So for, so for them, there's some key story beats that will hook them in ready for season four.

[01:30:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[01:30:04] [SPEAKER_04] So, um, I think it's fair to, I mean, for the, while we're talking, we've had some, some feedback dropping on the discord. Oh, great. Um, and I'm going to do this live. About Lioness? Yeah. And I think it's live. So I just want to get this across. The TCS, uh, went on the discord and said, I really like Lioness, even though I'm certain it's straight trash. I didn't think the TCS, I'm, you could kill surprise. I know.

[01:30:28] [SPEAKER_04] Will I be able to listen and still enjoy the show if there is another season? So I, I, I literally went back to the TCS and said, look, I'm not there to yuck someone's you. Um, you like Lioness, my wife and my daughter like Lioness.

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_03] David kind of likes Lioness too.

[01:30:48] [SPEAKER_04] I'm going to watch season four. You'll know that there'll be something that you'll enjoy out of the pod. You know, I'm not, I'm, I'm being quite clear. I don't like it, but I'm not going to like, just be saying I don't like it. I don't like it. I will pick up on things that I've got particularly, that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a bit of, it's just a bit of fun, but, um, that's yeah. I just thought, I thought I'd bring that in because it felt pertinent to where we were getting to with, um, the overview of Lioness.

[01:31:17] [SPEAKER_03] Got it. Anything else on, on the story of season three? No. Okay.

[01:31:25] [SPEAKER_04] I think I'm cool. Shall I go into season six?

[01:31:28] [SPEAKER_03] I'll just put a wrapper on, uh, season three quickly. And which I alluded to before the convolutedness, the switch or Swiss watch mechanics, if you will, is it is a unique evolution of the show. And it is a evolution of Sheridan's writing and story construction because one and two are pretty straightforward. One's pretty straightforward. Two gets a little bit more geopolitically complex.

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_03] And three is 4D chess stuff going on. And that is a really interesting evolution of what Sheridan's doing. He's trying to up each season. And, and, and like you said, people are invested. They're invested in Joe in a relationship. They're invested in, you know, they want to hear two cups's quips and they want to, you know, see what happens with, uh, Cruz and, um, uh, Josie, the helicopter pilot, you know, that, that kind of stuff.

[01:32:25] [SPEAKER_03] The fact, the fact that the QRF were doing double A, you know, uh, uh, uh, doing field,

[01:32:35] [SPEAKER_04] you know, like with the FBI jackets on and badges and will, and then trying to recruit

[01:32:42] [SPEAKER_03] assets in the field and turn, you know, turn like, come on. These, it was wild. That shit was wild. These are door kickers. These are not spies who can use, uh, uh, an alias who can use a, um, what do you call it? Um, have you watched that? Is it on Netflix? The, um, one about the customs in the UK customs, the legends using legends. Oh, okay.

[01:33:09] [SPEAKER_04] No, I don't know. No, but I, I, I know that the premise. The show. So it's police.

[01:33:14] [SPEAKER_03] So it sort of falls outside of our remit. I don't know if we should widen our scope to include law enforcement stuff. I don't know.

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_04] We can think about that, but I know what you're saying in this instance, it's like subtle tea is not in their vocabulary. So why are they?

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_03] Anyway, just, just the comment that it's an interesting evolution in the Sheridan's approach in writing.

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_04] Okay, cool. So, okay. Slow horses season six. So the synopsis as River Cartwright prepares for his grandfather. At River's funeral, Jackson Lamb investigates the death of former slow horse, Strew and Loy. Attacks on current and former slow house agents expose a conspiracy involving Diana Tavener's authorization of an off-the-books assassination in Russia.

[01:33:57] [SPEAKER_04] The show is financed by media billionaire Damien Cantor.

[01:34:27] [SPEAKER_04] After surviving the attack, River returns to his grandfather's house where he's poisoned and collapses. Fade to black. Leaving us on a cliffhanger. So yeah. Were you sad about Coe?

[01:34:46] [SPEAKER_03] I was accidentally spoiled, but I thought it was Poe, not Coe. I thought Roddy was the one who had gotten killed. I just knew that there was a character death and I didn't. And I thought it was Roddy and not Coe. Were you disappointed it wasn't Roddy? I kept waiting for Roddy to get zipped, you know? And is it going to happen here? Is it going to happen here?

[01:35:16] [SPEAKER_03] Is it going to happen here? And it turns out it was Coe. And then I was like, oh, that was like really bummer. I was like kind of bummed out because, yeah, my expectations were placed elsewhere. Now that we have watched the season and there's a bunch of character beats that Coe had, it's like, oh, they were telegraphing that it was coming for him.

[01:35:40] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[01:35:40] [SPEAKER_03] We get to know him a little bit better. He talks about killing people, about like, is he a sociopath because he's enjoying it? These kinds of things.

[01:35:48] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. It was, I mean, there was a lot of social media backwards and forwards about Coe dying and how people were like, oh, no, we were just really starting to get to enjoy Coe. I was in, when we got to the end, I was intrigued that they killed Flight because she was an interesting character. Dude, I was pissed. Yeah. I was so upset. Whoa. So we were at the TV going, oh, okay.

[01:36:19] [SPEAKER_04] That's a bit of a shame, you know, just as she would have been an interesting outside because she was, she would never, I mean, she quit, didn't she? Before she was going to be sent to the slay house. Did she quit? I don't know.

[01:36:30] [SPEAKER_03] It wasn't clear. Oh, sure. She was out.

[01:36:33] [SPEAKER_04] Tavener had threatened her, you're going to slay a house. And she went, fuck you. I'm out of here.

[01:36:38] [SPEAKER_03] I didn't realize that she had actually resigned from the, from the service completely.

[01:36:41] [SPEAKER_04] She was probably on gardening leave or something. Right. Until they process paperwork. Yeah. It's a civil service.

[01:36:47] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. It's going to take months. Right. But, um, I was really looking forward to her joining slow, uh, to joining slay house. Yeah. I was thinking, oh, they might have her. That would be amazing.

[01:36:57] [SPEAKER_04] Kind of on the outside or, you know. Yeah. Absolutely. The thing is she's, she's got too much competency. Yeah.

[01:37:06] [SPEAKER_03] So she's not, she's not the, uh, and for Harkness to, to, uh, you know, deliver a coup de grace for her. Like I, I, I, in some ways that's, that's fitting. It's better. Like they're, they're two top tier predator, you know, sort of apex characters. And that she at least took one guy out, but I was really, uh, I, I'm not mad at the show for doing what I thought, I thought was a good, it worked.

[01:37:35] [SPEAKER_03] And I don't have a problem with it per se. I'm more mad in story. Like I'm mad. Like that. We don't have flight anymore.

[01:37:42] [SPEAKER_04] That's good. That shows how invested you get into the story, the characters on screen. So that's fine. I mean, what I liked about the structure of the show, and I think this might come down to the actors and the performances with the Russian hit squad. Seeing, I mean, I'm sure you've got the actors. But seeing Cyril from Andor.

[01:38:08] [SPEAKER_03] There's down here in the list. Yeah. I got a clothes, lioness, slow horses. Kyle Soler. Yeah. Seeing him. Don't add us for taking a moment to pick up the names. We have so much in our brains. Okay.

[01:38:24] [SPEAKER_04] Look, we're, we're, we're 50 year olds. Come on. We need time to process. I need to read.

[01:38:30] [SPEAKER_03] I need to keep in my brain, you know, what the call sign is for a little bird, you know, like what the actual model number is and these kinds of things.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_04] But, but having here, I mean, it was great seeing him on screen, but in a totally different character. Totally different character. So from the first like few minutes of episode one, you're like, Oh God, it's him. And Whoa, what a different performance. And it just, that, that, that dynamic of the assassins. Jim and Jane. Really wanted to know what is their deal? What's going on? Why are they bumping off Joe's? What's happening here? Did you watch Mr.

[01:39:05] [SPEAKER_03] And Mrs. Smith, the television series that was on a couple of years ago?

[01:39:09] [SPEAKER_04] No, I've seen the film years ago, but.

[01:39:12] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, no, it's not, it has nothing to do with the film. It's, it's a Danny Donald Glover. I would record, I would put that on your watch list.

[01:39:19] [SPEAKER_04] Okay.

[01:39:19] [SPEAKER_03] It's God, I wonder if it comes back, we'll have to talk about it by Eagle Eyes because it is sort of spies.

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_04] Spy espionage. Yeah. Yeah. So, so how did, I mean, it is, we've, we've mentioned before, this is, this is a different tone for slow horses. The way they're telling the story is very different. Did, did it change it? I mean, you've said, I think it was better for you, wasn't it? That the structure had changed slightly, that it felt a little bit more.

[01:39:45] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And I've said this in the hot takes, the, the, the humor was on point and the, the story was interesting. It had stakes and it put the characters into new precarious situations. I really loved one of the final scenes where Roddy is playing a first person shooter in

[01:40:12] [SPEAKER_03] his office because he feels guilty and he's, he's totally PTSD'd out. You know, he's, he's doing all the, you know, uh, uh, uh, stuff changes a man, you know, and I got this tattoo because blah, blah, blah, bro. Oh, now you've lived it. And how is that going to affect you?

[01:40:29] [SPEAKER_04] That acting was top tier because that's exactly, Shelley said, God, look at him. He's, he's, it's actually, something's actually got to. Got to, got inside of his head.

[01:40:40] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. In a way that being part of the honeypot last season didn't. Hmm. You know, when he was being worked by, uh, by the agent.

[01:40:50] [SPEAKER_04] One thing that we, we commented on that we felt was a little bit missing from the season is the Joes were all spread out. There was all little pockets. Yeah. Yeah. And, and we focused on river, which can be a tendency in this show. I think a little bit too much. What we felt was missing was when they're all together and they're all sparking off each other and, and Jackson's kind of being the, you know, the ringmaster. Right. Seeing, seeing how people are reacting.

[01:41:20] [SPEAKER_03] We only got that really at the end scene where they have their, uh, little memorial drink.

[01:41:25] [SPEAKER_04] Whereas we felt that, that, or we felt that was missing and that's something that we, we did. Hmm. We felt maybe, maybe they, they need to do a bit more of that. Everyone was off doing their thing. Right. There wasn't that kind of feeling.

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_03] I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, that didn't catch me. So that's. It's one of those things. I mean, how did, did, were you engaged by river story? Did, did, did, river is, you want to, you want to beat his head with a, a bar of soap and a sock. Uh, you know, it's just, he's so infuriating. He's so self-centered. He's so it's about me. And he runs off. Oh, you know, all the rest of his team is in danger, but no, he's got to run back to his dad, granddad's house for whatever reason.

[01:42:08] [SPEAKER_03] But then he'll pull off something like putting the rag in the car, Jim and Jane's car, uh, and, and blowing it up. So he's such a, uh, an annoying character. Okay. The, we, we, we prefaced it. We foreshadowed it. A couple of things that really got under my skin about this episode. And these are writing things, not river things, but they're related to river. Uh, there's an infinite magazine kind of thing there. Everybody was popping off rounds without, uh, reloading.

[01:42:38] [SPEAKER_03] You know, I'm sorry that that magazine for that pistol is like eight or nine rounds, you know, one in the pipe maybe, but come on anyway, that aside. And they did that in like, I think the end of season four when the big shootout in the, in the data archives, it was just like, Oh, this is ridiculous. That aside, that's, that's one thing that bugged me. The one that really got me and I was screaming at television. My wife was like, calm down, honey.

[01:43:03] [SPEAKER_03] Was when river and Sid take off from after, from the air, the handover at the, at the airport. And he kicks her out of the car and says, run. They don't know, you know, whatever. And then he turns around and now they have him and they now know that Sid is no longer with him so they could work out, you know, any reasonable analyst would work out.

[01:43:33] [SPEAKER_03] Well, he went this far. So somewhere between here and there, when the other agents lost sight, when they got blown, one of the cars got blown up and, and where he stopped and turned around, she got out. So now we have a starting point to track her from, you know, and, and if we go back to the fugitive and, uh, what's his name? Uh, uh, uh, on the Marshall's service thing, the, uh, do you remember the fugitive? Yeah.

[01:43:56] [SPEAKER_04] Kimball, Dr. Richard Kimball.

[01:43:57] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And, uh, what's, uh, what's his name's character? The Marshall. Yeah. Yeah. It says, you know, Gerard, Gerard. Gerard. Right. You know, a human being can run four miles out, whatever that, you know, you know, they could work that out. He should have kept running and never stopped and led them on a merry chase. They would have never known that she had gotten out of the car and, and, you know, he could

[01:44:23] [SPEAKER_03] have led them for hours, you know, until they set up a roadblock or brought in a helicopter and, you know, interdicted him.

[01:44:30] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, sorry. Yeah. No, no, no. That's, that's exactly the conversation that we had when we watched it. I always come back to, do you know what? All it is. It just demonstrates why river is at Slay House because he's an, he's got over inflated opinion of his capabilities. Right. Based solely on the fact of his granddad and his granddad's relationship to the service.

[01:44:57] [SPEAKER_03] Right.

[01:44:57] [SPEAKER_04] So he, he believes he's better at what he does. He believes he's wronged. So he's always striving to escape Slay House. But at every opportunity where you could do something which would actually demonstrate tradecraft, like real tradecraft skills, capabilities, he consistently fails. Consistently. That's why you're at Slay House, you useless twat.

[01:45:25] [SPEAKER_03] If you read in the books, the, the, what goes down and how he gets from season one, how he fails that training exercise. It's great. And there's a, he has an antagonist character, the character that he got, he garbled the garbled communication about like, I forget it was a shirt and pants combo or shirt and trousers combo. Sorry. Sorry. Pants or something different in the UK. Yeah. That he's, he gets it.

[01:45:54] [SPEAKER_03] It's, you know, whatever the colors inverted. So that guy is in a higher position now. And that sort of dry, you know, goading river. So they, I think they do that. They think they carry that in the, in the show to a degree that, that he's denied, you know, access in the park and this kind of stuff. But you're absolutely right. But it's, it's clear why he's in Slough House and not at the park.

[01:46:17] [SPEAKER_04] What I, what, what I really liked, and we were talking about it today. Um, we really liked how in this season, um, Tavena was on the back foot, like really on the back foot. I think there was the one scene where Jackson goes to the park and usually when they meet, there's fireworks, but, but it, it, it, it always feels like Tavena reinforces to Lam.

[01:46:46] [SPEAKER_04] You can say what you want. I'm, I'm first desk in, in the scene in this season. She's completely on the back foot. Lam is completely in control of everything and she knows it and she hates it.

[01:47:00] [SPEAKER_03] Should I play the clip that we've pulled for, for this? Yeah. Uh, this is Tavena and Lam talking in Lam's car, uh, near the, near the end here. And I think this, this sums up what you're talking about and it sums up their, their relationship and it sums up something very fundamental about Lam and a kind of thesis statement for the show in that, yeah, these are, what do you care about your Joes?

[01:47:26] [SPEAKER_03] You're all in Slough House, but there's something that is revealed about Lam's character here.

[01:47:32] [SPEAKER_00] I am first desk. I'm first desk and I'm compromised. I am the greatest threat to national security we have seen in years and I'm taking myself off the board. No, you're not. Not until you stop the wholesale slaughter of my Joes. What you do after that is your own business. Although I'd think twice about admitting to treason. That'd be a pinch of fuck right there. There's a way out of this mess, Diana.

[01:48:02] [SPEAKER_00] But you've got to get down off that cross. I'll start bloody listening.

[01:48:08] [SPEAKER_04] That civil service pension, David, that's, that's platinum plated. You don't want to lose that.

[01:48:13] [SPEAKER_03] No, it's true. But it, it, it shows us the difference between Taminer who is a clout chaser and she's on the right in a way that I think both Americans and, but also there's a particular British rise to prominence that, you know, drives people, especially through civil service and wearing the right tie or going to the right school, this kind of stuff.

[01:48:38] [SPEAKER_03] And that she's a woman and that she's first desk and that she's worked her ass off and she's been, you know, operating backwards and in heels for years to finally achieve it. And then to have it and then buckles because of this off books operation, which I don't understand why she did, but that's a separate question. Whereas lamb, he's riding out his pension, as you say, but his Joes are his Joes.

[01:49:05] [SPEAKER_03] And you do not, I will fuck with my Joes until the cows come home, but you do not put their lives in jeopardy. You do not, you do not betray your own in this way. And you did that. You fundamentally compromised the agency.

[01:49:23] [SPEAKER_04] What I found really interesting, and this brings us into kind of the comparing and contrasting between slow horses and lionesses, there's actually a lot of crossover in terms of some story beats. Amazingly this season. Yeah. So, so in both of them, there's this element of, you know, a, an earlier mission or a mission

[01:49:48] [SPEAKER_04] that has been carried out has pissed off someone big. Yes.

[01:49:55] [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

[01:49:56] [SPEAKER_04] And, and that is going to come back and it's going to bite you bigly in the butt. Um, but it's really interesting watching the two together, how differently they're treated.

[01:50:08] [SPEAKER_06] Mm hmm.

[01:50:09] [SPEAKER_04] Um, but it, but it lands very squarely in the DNA of both shows, but it was just, it's just interesting how kind of very similar, you know? So I was in, you know, it'd be, it'd be cool to kind of get your thoughts on that.

[01:50:24] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And it brings home this idea that, um, where is safety when the, when the, when the operation comes home and it threatens your life and your livelihood and your family and your friends. And, you know, you're, you're murdered off the back of your canal boat, uh, where you lived for 20 some odd years or, or what have you, uh, where it destroys your vacation home. Where is her, where is her place there? Did you recognize there was, it was on the map. They tapped it on the map.

[01:50:54] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. I didn't get a proper look, but I got the feeling it's probably somewhere like East Anglia or something like that.

[01:50:59] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. Uh, it's pretty posh house for a English, uh, countryside. Mm hmm. She's first desk. This is it. Okay. Sorry. Another rant. First desk. She's at home. Lamb. Okay. Lamb breaks in. That's funny. Ha ha ha. No. But the guy, she has no on-premises security. She has no perimeter security. I'm sorry. That is just not, you know, going on media. Uh, there's just like, there were, okay.

[01:51:28] [SPEAKER_03] The, the, the media thing with, you know, firing flight that I get that, but the fact that somebody could just come up and ring your bell without going through some kind of perimeter security or having some other agent there, that's just, that just.

[01:51:41] [SPEAKER_04] No. For someone of her, for someone of the job she does. Exactly. She has got on-site security.

[01:51:47] [SPEAKER_03] And, and somebody who's walking up your steps is recorded by 18 different cameras. There's no, they've already run facial recognition through multiple databases, even before you get, press your finger on the door, uh, the doorbell. Uh, that was crazy. Uh, sorry, I got on a rant there. What were we talking about?

[01:52:04] [SPEAKER_04] No, no. Oh, the operation comes home. Yeah. And, and, and, and how, how, you know, both, both programs deal with that kind of scenario.

[01:52:13] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I think we should, we should play the, uh, quote from Lioness too, because it's also a thesis statement for why Joe does what she does and why she'll tolerate the wreckage in her personal life. Uh, it, it's interesting that in, in both these cases, in both these shows, it's very personal. I mean, obviously with river and his dad and, um, uh, the former slough house, uh, employees

[01:52:41] [SPEAKER_03] who are just trying to live their lives in some way, some way, uh, all of this blowback, uh, coming at them. But here's Joe's, uh, reason for why she does what she does. And she's talking to, uh, her daughters and I've taken the scene and I've, I've, um, trimmed out a bunch of the, uh, empty space. Uh, so it's, you might hear a clip every once in a while, but it's, I tried to tighten it up, but it's long. So hang, hang on.

[01:53:05] [SPEAKER_01] We want you to quit. What do you think that's going to solve? Then there's no reason to hurt you. It doesn't, it doesn't work like that. Evil doesn't stop being evil when we surrender to it. It just gets more evil. Girls. I don't know what your passion in life will be. Your father's passion is fighting to save lives.

[01:53:34] [SPEAKER_01] My passion is fighting to save a way of life. Your father doesn't quit when he loses a patient. Of course it hurts him in more ways than he'll ever be able to express to you or to me, but he doesn't quit. And I've lost lives. I've known many very, very good people who gave their lives for this way of life that we all get to enjoy. And I've almost lost mine more than once. And I may lose mine yet.

[01:54:05] [SPEAKER_01] And yes, I've taken lives. I've killed for this way of life. But that's how precious I believe your freedom is. We've danced around this forever and there is no dancing around it anymore. I'm a soldier and a soldier's job is to fight until the soldier is unable to fight or until the fight is over. And I believe that our right to choose how we want to live our lives is worth the sacrifice.

[01:54:35] [SPEAKER_01] That's how much I love you.

[01:54:42] [SPEAKER_03] So, Doove, are you ready to stand up and salute because the soldier is sacrificing their life for your way of, your choice to live your values? Yeah. As a Brit, how do you, does that, is that just like the ultimate American hamburger? It is. It is. To you, piping hot.

[01:55:00] [SPEAKER_04] It doesn't, it's not how we, it's not how we describe the what we did. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, and it's interesting because you listen to that clip and you know that there's elements within what Joe is describing is probably how Jackson would talk to himself, but he wouldn't use the terminology, the language, the structure that Joe does.

[01:55:26] [SPEAKER_04] But there's elements of he will continue until the job is done.

[01:55:30] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm. You know? Right.

[01:55:32] [SPEAKER_04] And it's not about truth, justice. It's not about a way of life. For him, it's, as you said, nobody fucks with my Joes. I'm the only one that fucks with my Joes. And I'll do everything to protect them. You know? So.

[01:55:47] [SPEAKER_03] And they're the baddies and we're the goodies because we don't do the things that they do. And that's the fight that we're in. But I'm not, but he's not going to stand up and, and light off fireworks and salute the flag and performatively demonstrate how loyal he is to King and Crown.

[01:56:06] [SPEAKER_04] And that's just, and that's just the British way. Right. That's where, that's where our, our reserve comes in. And it's just very different that, um, from a Brit's perspective, um, Americans are much, uh, are much more relaxed about using that kind of language to describe service. And funny enough, I mean, um, yesterday I was out manning, um, a poppy stand. It's, it's remembrance, um, in the UK coming up in November.

[01:56:34] [SPEAKER_04] Um, and what's really interesting is the amount of people that came to talk to myself and my colleague about their family service. Um, so actually there's probably an element of where we need to embrace a little bit of how America approaches and the discussion around service, whether it be military, whether it be police, whether it be civil service or whatever, there's probably a bit where we need to take a little bit from you guys.

[01:57:04] [SPEAKER_04] And what I would say is, you just take a little bit from us and just, just turn the dial from 11 to maybe a seven. But you know, it's, it's horses for courses, isn't it?

[01:57:19] [SPEAKER_03] It's interesting too, because of the, we're still living in the echoes of world war two and those things are still reverberating out. And the experience of England and, and the United kingdom in world war two, literally the battle was on the home front. And we've, we've fought some wars and we've, we've had some dustups and tussles here, but

[01:57:48] [SPEAKER_03] to actually have a foreign power strike, uh, even a non-state actor strike us through all through, you know, not until things were pretty settled, uh, did we have, you know, as, as a country and a sort of a, a, a unified body, have we had any sort of, uh, overseas threat, uh, affect us at home? Obviously Pearl Harbor was a shock.

[01:58:16] [SPEAKER_03] I have to add that in there now that I think about it, but that, that, that, that provoked, that kicked the hornet's nest, right? Uh, and, and, and, and galvanized action and 9-11 did the same thing. And so, uh, when you see Lioness, Lioness is a product of the post 9-11 security environment. England and slow horses is a post cold war thing because the, the cold war was unfolding

[01:58:45] [SPEAKER_03] in England direct, very direct. And even to today, uh, with, uh, the poisonings and, uh, you know, the stuff actually happening on the, the money that's in London, uh, you know, and currently. So yeah, so there is a very different sort of, regardless of our national tonalities, but there's also a different posture relating to global threats.

[01:59:10] [SPEAKER_03] And, and that's evident in this show where, especially with season one, there's a whole debate about whether we should commit to this mission or not. And they did because they can't pull out the, they can't stop the agent. It's too late to give the recall order and now it, it upsets the whole bunch of stuff. Um, sorry, I don't know where I was going with that, but anyway, just the, just the point that, that both shows kind of, there's an embodiment of how threats in the world play

[01:59:38] [SPEAKER_03] out for our countries and how we see them. It's embodied in the show. They're allegorical in both ways.

[01:59:44] [SPEAKER_04] And I think some of the stuff we've been talking about, what you just mentioned there, I was reflecting back on the tonality and some of the ways that Lioness was, was pulling in current geopolitical versus the world of slow horses. I mean, I mentioned that it feels like the cold war is almost still on in slow horses. Yeah. But it's not, it feels out of time is the way I described the world of slow horses.

[02:00:12] [SPEAKER_04] There's stuff going on, but, but it doesn't point to anything in particular, you know? Right. We've got a, we've got a Russian kill squad. You've got...

[02:00:24] [SPEAKER_03] But they're in reaction to what Tavener did.

[02:00:26] [SPEAKER_04] Exactly. And you've got Tavener engaging with her opposite number in Russia. Exactly how I imagined it would have been back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. They're playing the game, you know? Well, I know what you did. So what are you going to give me? Or I'll give you the agent. Yeah. You give me the agent and, you know, all's fair. It's, it kind of feels like it's existing out of time in slow horses.

[02:00:55] [SPEAKER_04] Slow horses, whereas, whereas Lioness, you know, it's literally ripped from news feeds.

[02:01:02] [SPEAKER_03] Especially this season with what I was talking about before, the way that the cutouts are working and the, you know, the way that they're conducting operations.

[02:01:08] [SPEAKER_04] This wouldn't, we talked a lot about Lioness being really good in terms of, you know, having advisors and stuff like that. I have to, I have to rip on something. The scene when they're in Ukraine and the Delta and CIA team are engaging the trench system with dogs, right?

[02:01:35] [SPEAKER_04] Anyone in the military who's ever fought through trenches knows you won't send dogs in because all they'll do is set up, set off BB traps. That's the first thing. So it looks cool having canines there, but you wouldn't send dogs into trenches because they're going to set off BB traps. The second one is how stacked they were in the trench. One grenade would have taken out that entire team.

[02:02:02] [SPEAKER_04] It's like, guys, you've, you've, you, you're telling me on socials and on IMDB and stuff like this, how you've got, um, you know, X special operators always on set. You can't tell me that someone was happy that, oh my God, look, there's nine of you all huddled together in one part of the trench.

[02:02:26] [SPEAKER_03] One grenade, you're toast. We didn't even talk about the angry bee buzzy war, uh, drones war.

[02:02:33] [SPEAKER_04] I know, I know. This is it, but we don't, you know, we're not, we're not here to beat something to death. What we're here to do is have some fun, throw some spark, but call out, call out some egregious, you know, shit.

[02:02:52] [SPEAKER_03] And, and Sheridan loves, and this lioness does this, they love to have one or two set piece, big set pieces. Yeah. Yeah. In a season. And this was the, the big starter set piece, uh, and, and, you know, Sheridan himself wanted to get in on the action. Yeah. And just ridiculous, the underground factory bunker on the front line and all of that stuff. What he's done is he's taking a bunch of open source Intel that he's gotten and word of mouth

[02:03:19] [SPEAKER_03] stuff that he's gotten probably from a lot of the guys that he's, uh, got helping, uh, advise the show and he's synthesizing it into a, here's a candy bar of all the flavors, uh, that's happening in Ukraine right now. Uh, and yeah, do the Ukrainians use dogs? Yeah. Are there drones? Yeah. Are there trenches? Yeah. Are there secret underground factories and secret underground? All of it. And so he's just mashed it all together. Mashed it all together.

[02:03:44] [SPEAKER_03] So that we can, he can give us a, uh, uh, you know, have some fun on his ranch and blow some shit up and, uh, have everybody run around in tech gear.

[02:03:54] [SPEAKER_04] That's a good tagline for this show. Run around and blow shit up. That's what, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the log line to sell it. But I mean, kind of thinking coming towards the end of the discussion on this, I mean, yeah, we should wrap up, right? How did you feel about the, the ending of both shows? How, how did it land for you? Lioness and Slow Horses.

[02:04:16] [SPEAKER_03] Slow Horses was an absolute, uh, mind bender. I was like, wait, what's going on? And I think one of our loyal listeners and, and discord contributors decoded and solved it for us. But I was like, did, did, uh, was Sid setting lamb up? Like what happened? You know, all this stuff. Like I was so confused, but I was so engaged and so hooked. And I was just on pins and needles. Uh, I loved it.

[02:04:46] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, I, I love that Cartwright is denied. Like he's like, oh, I got my chance. We're in love. And we get to have this great romantic, every, the thread is neutralized. We're safe. Uh, and then, oh my God, that was so good. This said him doing all this stuff. It was so fun. Uh, so I really enjoyed that. And, uh, looking forward to it. Season three of Lioness. Yeah. We don't know if we're going to get a season four.

[02:05:11] [SPEAKER_03] They're bringing back this, you know, season one character who's, she's a great character. I will say that. And the actress is the actor is amazing. She's awesome. The camera is just, I want to see her more on screen because she's so great on screen. And, um, yeah, they left it, you know, with Joe's family gone. Like, yeah, I get that. You know, they've been through a lot and he's just like, Neil's like, fuck it. We're, we're, we can't do this anymore. Yeah.

[02:05:39] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, so yeah, they left it in, I think they're for serialized television that, that exists in this space. They did a good job, um, setting hooks for us for, for additional seasons.

[02:05:53] [SPEAKER_04] So, yeah, I think, yeah, I, I concur on this. Like I say, whilst I may not watch if a season four comes out, I can definitely see, I can definitely see why, if you're engaged in that story, you're going to want to find some of those threads.

[02:06:11] [SPEAKER_03] Just sit next to Shell on the couch and second screen and, uh, you know, sort of look up every once in a while. What's going on?

[02:06:19] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, look, it's a butt. Or it's a breast.

[02:06:23] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, it's a, yeah, they're, they're, you know, what, what new piece of hardware can they use this season? You know, what helicopter or boat or APC or something? Yeah.

[02:06:32] [SPEAKER_04] No, I love that. So I, I think, I think it's fair that, that, that kind of brings us to the conclusion. Yeah. On, on the discussion. Um, we do have some feedback. Um, do you want to kick off on slow horses with Mrs. Tennant?

[02:06:46] [SPEAKER_03] Sure. Ms. Tennant says, really enjoyed the finale. Sad to see my favorite dog die. And man, river. Yes. Being flight, not an actual canine. And man, river is an idiot.

[02:06:58] [SPEAKER_04] I think we've, I think we've established that.

[02:07:01] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, I would have been perfectly okay if he died this episode and I haven't read the book. So I guess it can only hope that the poison is forever. Damn. Oh, Canada's heart there. Watch out.

[02:07:13] [SPEAKER_04] I know. Collateral damage. That's good. I like, when I saw that, I thought, oh, I've got to put that in. Yeah. That's classic.

[02:07:19] [SPEAKER_03] Um, you want me to read carry on all with Zatoichi?

[02:07:22] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, you do Zatoichi.

[02:07:23] [SPEAKER_03] A more action based season, but still had those great dumb moments, genius lamb moments, really good season. I'll miss the actors, but I love when they kill their darlings. River's death was fitting. Is it a death? Yeah. I see. I don't think he is. We don't, we don't, we need an answer to that. If, if they bring Louisa back more fully, I'd be happy. I really like that character.

[02:07:48] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, but yeah, if they took out river, like where, who would our, who are pro and, and, and protagonist. I don't know. He's both an antagonist and a protagonist in what you call that. And then, uh, Paul K sums it up. This show has never been a great advertisement for Jaffa cakes and whiskey.

[02:08:09] [SPEAKER_04] I like that. I thought that was really good. So yeah, you know, some good, good comments there about, um, slow horses. We had some, um, feedback about our last pod as well. Pressure. Oh, okay. Great. Um, which was nice. And we had Nancy under the pod.

[02:08:24] [SPEAKER_03] Very, very little on, on slow horses. I mean, on, on, uh, lioness. I actually searched, uh, the, for the keyword lioness on the discord. Nothing.

[02:08:33] [SPEAKER_04] That's, that's why when the TCS dropped that one in, I thought I'm going to die. I'm going to pull it live. But yeah. So Nancy says, I finished listening to your pod and I have to say you all were great. Oh, cheers, Nancy. We always, you know, stroke our egos. We like that. Um, I saw pressure in the theater back in June when it was released. My husband loves in caps war movies. So it was a date night. Well, it sounds like Eagle Eyes could be Nancy's husband's cup of tea.

[02:09:00] [SPEAKER_04] Um, as you mentioned, Darkest Hour was done by the same people. So we watched it two nights ago. Okay. It seems forever since I'd seen it. So if I like watching it for the first time, hard to believe the man under all that makeup is the same man who portrays Jackson Lamb. Yeah. So, uh, so Gary was, um, Churchill. Oh, interesting. Okay. I don't think I've ever seen that. Very different. Yeah. It's worth watching. It's, it's another, it's, it's in the similar vein to a pressure. So it's definitely worth a watch.

[02:09:30] [SPEAKER_04] Uh, I loved how you call these types of movies, bunker movies. I like that title for war genre. I used to be able to watch all kinds of movies, but after having kids, I have a very hard time watching anything about war because in my heart, I imagine it is my son or daughter. Same thing after I got a dog. Yeah. I mean, I, I replied to Nancy and I just said, that's a, that's a human reaction, you know, to war, which is a horrible, dirty, filthy thing for any of us who've ever.

[02:09:57] [SPEAKER_03] And that's the fine line that we're covered. We're walking on this show is yeah, we, you know, we both can geek out about, uh, tactics and equipment and, you know, we, we enjoy it. But at the, on the other side, I, I'm speaking for both of us and correct me if I'm wrong in the statement, but it's something that human beings, it's, it's something that we do. It's something that's in us and we put it on screen and we put it on paper and we have to engage with it.

[02:10:27] [SPEAKER_03] And hopefully if we can engage with it in a, in a, in a particular way, we can reduce the incidence of it over time.

[02:10:34] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[02:10:35] [SPEAKER_03] So it's a very hard thing to think, you know, we haven't, we haven't solved it yet. I mean, we, we had a pretty long, good, big run for a while, but it's getting a little weird again. So.

[02:10:48] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. But it was a good point that Nancy made there. And she finishes off by going, I promised my husband in the spirit of good marital relations to watch Band of Brothers. Oh, we are two episodes in. He warns me when I need to close my eyes. No, that's, you know, well done, Nancy. You, you, you are going to enjoy Band of Brothers. That was really good. And we got, uh.

[02:11:08] [SPEAKER_03] One of the things about that, that's successful about Band of Brothers too, is that there's a cast of characters that you can hold onto through, throughout. Whereas in the Pacific and what was the airplane one that we.

[02:11:18] [SPEAKER_04] Masters of the Air.

[02:11:19] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Where it's really hard to follow those. But this one, it's really good because we have a single unit and a single group of guys

[02:11:26] [SPEAKER_04] that we can get to follow them. So that was great. And we got a little bit from my law brother, Brian, 8063. He added us, uh, listening to pressure. Great work. I'm almost done. I think the operation before D-Day that you were talking about was not Operation Torch. This is North Africa in 1942. But Exercise Tiger, when German U-Boats put the landing ships and hundreds died. I did actually, I don't know if it was in the recording, but I did actually correct myself.

[02:11:55] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. Did I say, I think I might've said, I can't remember. Yeah. Anyway. Thanks, Brian.

[02:12:00] [SPEAKER_04] Thanks, Brian. Yeah. So that was really good. So yeah. So it's nice. Always nice to get some feedback. Yep. Please do keep it coming.

[02:12:07] [SPEAKER_03] Eagle Eyes, or you can pop it on the Discord as well on the Eagle Eyes channel, or if any particular title that we're talking about is there. Uh, yeah. And you're welcome to add us. Well, I think that sort of wraps it up. So Aliens, uh, November 14th, probably 2 PM Eastern. Uh, we'll put out, uh, an event actually on the Discord server itself so that you'll be able to track it. Uh, we've got some technical things to work out and whatnot, but we're going to be watching.

[02:12:34] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, did, did the results of the poll on theatrical versus extended cut resolve?

[02:12:39] [SPEAKER_04] It's, it's got a few hours left, but it's looking pretty much like the theatrical cut. Okay.

[02:12:44] [SPEAKER_03] We'll talk about the, a couple of things about the extended cut, but I think the theatrical cut is a better cut. Yeah. There's only one element that I miss, uh, which I think would add to Ripley's character and they could have done it in a line of dialogue or something like that. But anyway. Cool. Then we have a band of brothers with Brian 8063 and then Nate bringing up some reinforcement, uh, reinforcements with his, uh, armor column.

[02:13:09] [SPEAKER_03] And then the recruiting poster, three films from 1986, top gun, Eagle, iron Eagle, and Delta force. That'll be fun. Fun stuff. Uh, well quickly let's get out of here. Uh, not too much more to say in housekeeping. Just a quick shout out to our community volunteers, Nancy, Peter, Oh, H sub zero, Brian, 8063,

[02:13:34] [SPEAKER_03] Aaron K and Adrian, who will help with polls and the discord and moderating and the, and the blur, uh, the, uh, sorry, the blog, uh, discord server boosters, Aaron K, tell her the thriller do 71, Athena, Adjalea, the stew, Nancy M goes to perdition radioactive Richard and Adrian all donate a little extra so that the community server has some more bells and whistles and a little bit more functionality. So thank you all for that.

[02:14:01] [SPEAKER_03] And, uh, our top tier lore master subscribers, Samarshan, Michael G, Michelle E, SC, Peter, OH, Nancy M, Doove 71, Brian, 8063, Frederick H, Sarah L, Garrett C, Andra B, Kwong Yu, Nathan T, Sub Zero, Aaron K, Dally V, Mothership 61, Gnarls, Kathy W, Lestu, Jeffrey B, Alicia U, Ben B, Scott F, Steven N, Julia F, Koli S, Il, Mariel, Rocky Zim, Jessica A, Red Zippy,

[02:14:27] [SPEAKER_03] the TCS, Ellen R, Ms. Tennant, AC Wilson, Eli W, Cassie K, Chumburu, Nikotila, Josh Liu, Painting PDX, Corey G, Quinch, Jeannie L, Slaboneta, Cassandra C, and always last, never least, Adrian. Thank you all so very much for your subscriptions and your ongoing support. Doove, it was a pleasure. This went, I felt like we could have talked for another hour or so. It was just kind of a couple of mates hanging out down at the pub, shooting the shit.

[02:14:54] [SPEAKER_04] I think we worked out that, yeah, we should have done a season on slow horses, but I think we did pretty well to, to be fair. There's so much on the table. There's so many things that we haven't talked about, but. But that's fine. That's fine. What can you do? That's what the disc goes for.

[02:15:10] [SPEAKER_03] That's right. Exactly. Well, thanks everyone for sticking around. Do, thank you for all the work you're putting into this. This is really great. I'm really starting to enjoy Eagle Eyes. I think it's developing nicely. So. Cool. Thanks for, uh, for being game for this and we'll see everybody soon. Bye.

[02:15:24] [SPEAKER_02] Take it easy. The Lorehounds podcast is produced and published by the Lorehounds. You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at thelorehounds.com slash contact. Get early and add free access to all Lorehounds podcasts at patreon.com slash the Lorehounds. Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities. Thanks for listening.